The 144,000 Spiritual Israel?

[Guest shadow2b]

That's an interesting take on things Gary.

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George

The decendants of the other tribes still exist but most of them have no idea that they are decendants of the tribes.

Star

The book of Revelations also talks about the army involved in the battle of armageddon and it is numbered at 200,000,000 so I think you can take that number 144,000 to be a literal 144,000 and that they are virgin decendants of the 12 tribes of Isreal.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

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Hi all

I would just like to through an interesting thought into the ring for you all. Please read all.

When the Hebrews where freed from their suffering in Egypt they all had the expectation of going to a land of milk and honey but as we know most of them never made it most of them found death in the desert. Why? because they rejected the message of the two true scouts sent into Canaan to spy the land. You will remember that Moses intervened when God proposed to kill all the Hebrews. But even though Moses stopped the slaughter he still did not prevent YAHWEH's judgment on the people for they all still died never reaching the promised land, except for the little ones that where still Innocent at the time of their rejection of the good report of the two scouts. These innocent ones grew up in the desert and when the old ones had died they where the ones who entered the promised land to possess it.

SO

From todays situation and From the Book of Revelations we see surprising similarities to the story of the exodus. Firstly we see the modern Hebrews suffering in fascist Europe they are freed from their oppressors and go to possess the lands they now occupy that being modern Israel. But this modern state is not like the promised land, the land of the millennium rule of the Messiah is it? for He has not yet come so you can see in a way they are still like the Hebrews traveling to the promised land in the OT. You will read in the revelation that they too will hear a true report but this time from the Two Prophets. Can you start to see similarities here? Well what is prophesied to happen to those two prophets in the city of Jerusalem? How will their report be received? Yes they shall be rejected and killed and there dead bodies will lie in the street for 3 days and they shall not bury them but shall make merry sending presents to celebrate their deaths. So now back to the 144,000 are these like the innocents that God gave the promised land of old to?

[Matthitjah]

Amen Adstar on the Jewish brethern,

If they believe they will be grafted back in.

They have also been pruned from G-ds pefect Israel in the meantime. So will we be pruned if we fall away.

I am glad for all who have joined the debate. I seek knowledge.

Yod,

There are 20 some different listings of those tribes in the OT. None match this one? Why?

It takes quite a stretch to make this "spiritual Israel" because it does list each tribe by name, then immediately AFTER this event the chapter of Revelation 7 says that John saw a great multitude of gentiles in heaven. Why didn't he say it was ANY of the tribes of spiritual Israel? Because it isn't!

It is a literrary tool of John's to say first he heard the report , Then he saw the reality of the report.Amen!

Look at Revelation 1:10-12 First he hears the loud voice Then(key literrary word all through Revelation) he see's the voice and goes on to describe our Lord.

Same thing happens in Revelation 7. He hears the report of G-ds perfect sealed servants. Then in reality he see's them a multitude no one could number from all nations.

Judah is listed first because Jesus is the Lion of Judah.

Come let us reason. If any person has a theory or understanding let us hear it. I don't know if I'm right. I think it is the most plausible explanation.

I have this thing about the supposed 3rd Temple to be built under A.C.'s reign. How can he cause an abomination of desolation to an already desolate Temple. The sacrifices will be desolate and meaningless. For the perfect sacrifice has already been made. In that vein I see this whole 7 year Tribulation and peace pact nonsense in a whole new light. That throws the meaning of Revelation 7 and 11 in the air.

Peace :inlove: Amen

[Snowdoove]

George~

This is my answer to your question, Where are the other tribes?

I went hunting on msn search and found this (It isn't written in stone):

Israel Tribes

[Matthitjah]

Because Dan is missing. We can only speculate about that...but most believe it is because they caused Israel to stumble with idols

Genesis 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, A viper by the path, That bites at the horses heels So that the rider shall fall backward

If you have that spiritual quality about you . You certainly can't be G-ds servant.

What about Ephraim if his brother Manasseh made it why not he? In your reasoning that is?

Look at the charecteristics of Judah he gave himself for his Brother Benjamin.

Now that is a charecteristic of Christ himself. Why should he not lead out the Spiritual Isarel?

What are some of the charecteristics of the others mentioned?

If you seek you will find they are charecteristics of the body of Christ.

If you also seek you will find out why Ephraim cannot be part of this body.

P.S. John didn't count the perfect number. He heard it from an Angel ascending from the East with the seal in his hand.

He heard the perfect number 12 by 12 by 1,000. Then he saw it in actuality :thumb:

Look at Revealtion 14 and contrast the Charecteristics of the 144,000 and those who take the Mark of the Beast.

why can't it be exactly what it already says? Does it have to be a "hidden mystery" to fit your scenario? How many other places in the Bible does a passage not mean exactly what it says?

With your logic and reasoning. I will literally be expecting to see a Beast with 7 heads and 10 horns rising from the ocean. With a wild woman dressed in scarlet riding on it's back with Mystery Babylon written on her forehead.

Or perhaps a man coming out of the earth looking like a lamb but with 2 Horns poking from his head?

As you can see much of Revelation is imagery.Amen!

Peace :inlove: Amen

[Guest shadow2b]

Amen Adstar on the Jewish brethern,

If they believe they will be grafted back in.

They have also been pruned from G-ds pefect Israel in the meantime. So will we be pruned if we fall away.

I am glad for all who have joined the debate. I seek knowledge.

Yod,

There are 20 some different listings of those tribes in the OT. None match this one? Why?

It takes quite a stretch to make this "spiritual Israel" because it does list each tribe by name, then immediately AFTER this event the chapter of Revelation 7 says that John saw a great multitude of gentiles in heaven. Why didn't he say it was ANY of the tribes of spiritual Israel? Because it isn't!

It is a literrary tool of John's to say first he heard the report , Then he saw the reality of the report.Amen!

Look at Revelation 1:10-12 First he hears the loud voice Then(key literrary word all through Revelation) he see's the voice and goes on to describe our Lord.

Same thing happens in Revelation 7. He hears the report of G-ds perfect sealed servants. Then in reality he see's them a multitude no one could number from all nations.

Judah is listed first because Jesus is the Lion of Judah.

Come let us reason. If any person has a theory or understanding let us hear it. I don't know if I'm right. I think it is the most plausible explanation.

I have this thing about the supposed 3rd Temple to be built under A.C.'s reign. How can he cause an abomination of desolation to an already desolate Temple. The sacrifices will be desolate and meaningless. For the perfect sacrifice has already been made. In that vein I see this whole 7 year Tribulation and peace pact nonsense in a whole new light. That throws the meaning of Revelation 7 and 11 in the air.

Peace :inlove: Amen

doc,doc,doc,---- --  i keep telling ya DON'T symbolize when it isn't needed---there are multitudes of scriptures that MEAN EXACTLY what the say---& say EXACTLY what they mean--shhhhheeeeeeessssssshhhhhh-man are you ever hard

 to get to just let words be simple---doc really there is absolutely NO way you can get an exact # i.e.144,000 to streatch to an INNUMERABLE # "IF" it CAN'T be counted it AIN'T 144,000----you can't count that high,& neither can I---

you're NOT being honest in your teachings doc,you just want to hold onto something that WON'T work---CAN'T work & isNOT honest-----BUT i still love ya-in-THE-LORD-- :biggrin:

         your bro.shadow2b

[Matthitjah]

Shadow2b,

Serious question now?

You being post trib and pre wrath and all. You understand as I do that no believer is greater than any other.We are all under grace endowed with certain gift's of the Spirit but equal under Grace. Thus we cannot believe that a certain segment of believers will be swept away before Tribulation we must all undergo the same treatment as it were. If one group is special what of Grace.? Now your faith may make you able to stand during Tribulation while others fall. Correct? Yet they will no less be ressurected before the Rapture. For they have the same measure of Grace.Even if they fall or are mayrtered.

So here in lies my problem and why I seek truth on the 144,000. What makes them so special? Why are they hand sealed? Don't speculate that they will be used to spread the Gospel during Tribulation because there is no Church. I know better and so do you we are Post Trib believers. Do you see my problem with the common interpretation of the 144,000 and the 2 Witness' of Revelation? This is why I seek wisdom on these scriptures.

Being Post Trib Pre Wrath believers. We can not hold to the common interpretation of these Chapters.

Have peace dear brother. I still Love you too. We missed eachothers post's by minutes apart on the last two post's

Peace :inlove: Amen

[Guest shadow2b]

Shadow2b,

Serious question now?

You being post trib and pre wrath and all. You understand as I do that no believer is greater than any other.We are all under grace endowed with certain gift's of the Spirit but equal under Grace. Thus we cannot believe that a certain segment of believers will be swept away before Tribulation we must all undergo the same treatment as it were. If one group is special what of Grace.? Now your faith may make you able to stand during Tribulation while others fall. Correct? Yet they will no less be ressurected before the Rapture. For they have the same measure of Grace.Even if they fall or are mayrtered.

So here in lies my problem and why I seek truth on the 144,000. What makes them so special? Why are they hand sealed? Don't speculate that they will be used to spread the Gospel during Tribulation because there is no Church. I know better and so do you we are Post Trib believers. Do you see my problem with the common interpretation of the 144,000 and the 2 Witness' of Revelation? This is why I seek wisdom on these scriptures.

Being Post Trib Pre Wrath believers. We can not hold to the common interpretation of these Chapters.

Have peace dear brother. I still Love you too. We missed eachothers post's by minutes apart on the last two post's

Peace :inlove: Amen

heyyyyyyy bro----yep we stand together on -post-trib-pre-wrath- serious ?? now--?? oooohhhh- ohohhhh,i'm gonna get it now-- duck ya'll he might miss me & get ya'll.

  ---  that's all true,we are all same-same--NOPE I don't think the 144,00- will preach during the trib.--I can only go by what the scriptures plainly state,in this instance--REV.7.vs,1.thru.4.-- four angels are  stopped from carrying out their duties by another angel, untill the 144,000 jews ,12

thousand from each tribe are sealed in their foreheads as belonging to GOD.--THEY ARE CALLED THE SERVANTS OF GOD

by the angel & then they are sealed.---heyyyy doc--- i looked up the word [sEALED]-gr.4972-sphragizo--to stamp,

[with a signet or private mark]for security or preservation,

[lit.or fig.]by impl. to keep secret,to attest[set a,set to]

seal up.--IN rev.14.vs.1- the same 144,000 are with JESUS[the lamb] & they sung a new song that only they knew & no man could learn this new song except the 144,000.--sung=gr.

103-ado-sing--[traces back to purity of doctrine] in my opinion it would seem to be--they learn a new-doctrine- of JESUS AS the MESSIAH---they are not on earth ,they have been raptured-translated,transferred to heaven as the firstfruits unto GOD & THE LAMB--rev.14.vs.4.-they are virgins & they are before the throne of GOD.--vs.5.-------

ISRAEL was & is GOD'S chosen people,HE is MARRIED to ISRAEL,that is plainly thruout the old covenant,they are a special people to GOD[the apple of HIS eye] HE made specific promises to ISRAEL & HE must keep those promises. GOD plainly states these 144,000 are HIS & we have no right to question HIS motives or actions, but HE has clearly stated the things HE would do for HIS people ISRAEL in the last days.

just as these 144,000 are HIS to do with as HE sees fit,just as we are HIS to do with as HE sees fit.Besides there is just one little mystery GOD has reserved to HIMSELF in;REV.10.vs.4---seal UP those things the seven thunders uttered and write them NOT-----so WE don't know every single thing that's going to happen in these last days,BUT we know enough to accept GOD'S word to protect us & OR use us as HE  decides to.---- GOD-BLESS- bro.

keep on keepin on, we'll get there soon------shadow2b

[Matthitjah]

Let's take a look at who is sealed.

2nd Corinthians 1:22 Who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Ephesians1:10,13-14 10;That in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on Earth- in him.

13; In Him you also trusted, after you heard the Word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were Sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

14; Who is the guarantee of our inheritence until the redemption of the purchased posession, to the praise of his Glory.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of G-d, by whom you were Sealed for the day of redemption.

By these verse's we see all believers are sealed until the day of Redemption.

It would seem by the end of Revelation 7. We see all the redeemed of Christ rejoicing in Heaven. Saying in a loud voice " Salvation belongs to our G-d who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"

Now let's look at Matthew19:28 So Jesus said to them "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the Throne of His Glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

So the disciples sit on thrones judging Israel. Only one people of G-d. All believers ethnically Israel plus those grafted in become a new Israel in the regeneration headed by Christ w/ Jesus as King.

As for Ephraim here is his Spiritual disconnect and why his quality can't be part of the body of Christ.

Hosea 4:17-18Ephraim is joined to Idols. Let him alone.

18; Their drink is rebellion, They commit Harlotry continually. Her rulers dearly Love dishonor.

Hosea 5:4 They do not direct their deed's Toward turning to their G-d, For the spirit of Harlotry is in their midst, And they do not know the Lord.

WHOAWhat is a chief charecteristic of the 144,000?

Revelation 14:3-4

They sang as it were a new song before the Throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousane who were redeemed from the EARTH.(not just physical Israel)

4; These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb whereever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to G-d and to the Lamb.

These believers are not defiled with Harlotry(Women, Idols) .They direct their efforts to following the Lord wherever he goes. Their hearts are not turned towards rebellion continually but are chaste to the Lord thier deed's turned towards him seeking him continually relying on him. Not putting favor unto other pursuits or their own personal will or other gods.

Peace

:inlove: Amen