New covenant

[kross]

Well that's yet another angle to consider that I've never heard before - as though this thread hasn't given me enough "new angles" to consider

But back it up with scripture, please (otherwise no-one has much to consider).

Lekh

Some other time. This idea is one that came to me with much prayer and a desire to establish an understanding that would allow for all the seemingly contradictory issues with the rapture and Armageddon and millenium and new Jerusalem and a host of other scriptures that weave an interesting tale.

The bottom line of which is, tribulation starts, rapture occurs (Mid or Post, not sure yet) Christians in HEaven, JESUS returns, toasts the armies, 1,000 years of peace for ISrael on Earth, Satan set free, gathers a huge army (obviously not from Israel who has accepted their Messiah) attacks, get burnt to a crisp, Everything gets burnt to a crisp (not Israel) New world, New Heavens, New Jerusalem, all is well for eternity.

That covers a lot of books and verses and really is more than I can type or you want to read.

[kross]

And now back to Hebrews.... and back to another subject, which I've been praying a lot about because I was confused and sitting on the fence...

"And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." (Heb 10:17-18)

"And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." (Heb 10:17-18)

"And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." (Heb 10:17-18)

"And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." (Heb 10:17-18)

"And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." (Heb 10:17-18)

"And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." (Heb 10:17-18)

"And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." (Heb 10:17-18)

"And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." (Heb 10:17-18)

"And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." (Heb 10:17-18)

"And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." (Heb 10:17-18)

Praise Jesus!

As far as Ezekiel's temple is concerned - I can't see that the river flowing from under the threshold of the temple can be taken literally, nor the tress growing on each side of the river bearing fruit each month, whose leaves are for healing.

But sorting out the literal from the figurative and the timing of Ezekiel's temple is too much for my fallible human mind to handle, and though I've asked the Lord these last few days and many times in the past to give me the understanding of it, in His wisdom the Lord has chosen not to - so I'm putting Ezekiel's temple back into the "pending the Lord's return" box where I had it in the first place.

Do you know that there is a river flowing under the temple mount that has regularly flooded the rooms under it? So, there could be a literal meaning for the river also.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Nov 16 2009, 10:12 AM)

No He didn't. But what you have said is the heart of anti-Semitic theology. It is the church that rejected Israel and projected its hatred of the Jews on to God.

Historical revisionism at its best. Do you deny that the nation of Israel rejected Jesus Christ as Messiah?

No. It is not history revisionism. You need to read Josephus' Wars of the Jews. The destruction of the Temple was in response to the revolt in 66 A.D. in Ceasarea. In addition, you may find that same info here>>>http://www.livius.org/ja-jn/jewish_wars/jwar03.html

There were two major revolts against Roman occupation. The first led to the destruction of the Temple, and the second rebellion led by Bar Kochba led to the final destruction of Israel and the full and final exile of the Jewish people from Israel.

Do you reject the truth that God brought judgment on the nation of Israel via the Roman army witnessed in the destruction of the second temple?

Yes. It was the early church who interpreted Israel's demise as an act of God. They simply projected their hatred of the Jews on to God and interpreted Israel's misfortunes through that filter.

[Guest shiloh357]

Ezekiel clearly states they are

[Guest shiloh357]

"And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the ISRAEL of God" (Galatians 6:16)

Of the four, this is the verse that probably gets the most attention. The question that must be answered is what does Paul mean in this passage by the term "Israel of God." The assumption of many commentators is that "Israel of God" is used in juxtaposition to the corporate nation of Israel, the Jewish people. So what we must determine is whether or not the context in which it appears allows for that usage to be applied to Paul's words.

Part of the problem is how Replacement Theologians handle the word

[Guest shiloh357]

Famous Theologians Who Affirm a Future for Israel

by Michael J. Vlach, Ph.D.

The purpose of this document is to provide quotations from famous theologians who have affirmed some form of a future for the Jews or national Israel. We have also included statements from historians who have made comments about how theologians of a particular era or group viewed Israel's future. (Please note that we are not asserting that all these men believe the same thing about Israel.)

Thomas Aquinas

"It is possible to designate a terminus, because it seems that the blindness of the Jews will endure until all the pagans chosen for salvation have accepted the faith. And this is in accord with what Paul says below about the salvation of the Jews, namely, that after the conversion of the pagans, all Israel will be saved. 'All' here does not mean each individual; rather, 'all' Jews will be saved in a general sense."

Thomas Aquinas, "Super Epistolam Ad Romanos"; II.2, available from http://www.tacalumni.org/Aquinas/TOMA_075.txt; Internet. Translation by John Y. B. Hood.

John Calvin

"Paul quotes this passage, (Rom. xi. 26,) in order to shew that there is still some remaining hope among the Jews; although from their unconquerable obstinacy it might be inferred that they were altogether cast off and doomed to eternal death. But because God is continually mindful of his covenant, and "his gifts and calling are without repentance," (Rom. xi. 29,) Paul justly concludes that it is impossible that there shall not at length be some remnant that come to Christ, and obtain that salvation which he has procured. Thus the Jews must at length be collected along with the Gentiles that out of both "there may be one fold" under Christ. (John x. 16). . . . Hence we have said that Paul infers that he [Christ] could not be the redeemer of the world, without belonging to some Jews, whose fathers he had chosen, and to whom this promise was directly addressed."

John Calvin, "Commentary on the Book of the Prophet Isaiah," Calvin's Commentaries, vol. 8, 269.

" When the Gentiles shall come in, the Jews also shall return from their defection to the obedience of faith; and thus shall be completed the salvation, . . . which must be gathered from both; and yet in such a way that the Jews shall obtain the first place, being as it were the first born in God's family, as Jews are the first born, what the prophet declares must be fulfilled, especially in them; . . . it is to be ascribed to the preeminence of that nation, who God had preferred to all other nations....God distinctly claims for Himself a certain seed, so that His redemption may be effectual in His elect and peculiar nation....God was not unmindful of the covenant which He had made with their fathers, and by which he testified that according to his eternal purpose He loved that nation; and this he confirms by this remarkable declaration, - that the grace of divine calling cannot be made void."

"Epistle to the Romans," Calvin's Commentaries, vol. 19, 434-40.

English Puritans

Iain H. Murray states:

"From the first quarter of the seventeenth century, belief in a future conversion of the Jews became commonplace among the English Puritans."

Iain H. Murray, The Puritan Hope: Revival and the Interpretation of Prophecy (Carlisle, PA: Banner of Truth Trust, 1971), 42.

William Perkins

"The Lord saith, All the nations shall be blessed in Abraham: Hence I gather that the nation of the Jews shall be called, and converted to the participation of this blessing: when, and how, God knows: but that it shall be done before the end of the world we know."

Quote taken from Iain H. Murray, The Puritan Hope, 42.

Dutch Theologians of the 17th Century

J. Van Den Berg points out that many Dutch Reformed theologians of the seventeenth century believed in a future salvation of the Jews or restoration of the Jewish nation:

". . . for virtually all Dutch theologians of the seventeenth century, 'the whole of Israel' indicated the fullness of the people of Israel 'according to the flesh': in other words, the fullness of the Jewish people. This meant that there was a basis for an expectation of a future conversion of the Jews-an expectation which was shared by a large majority of Dutch theologians."

J. Van Den Berg, "Eschatological Expectations Concerning the Conversion of the Jews in the Netherlands During the Seventeenth Century," Puritan Eschatology: 1600 To 1660, ed. Peter Toon (Cambridge: James Clarke, 1970), 140.

Reformed Theology in the 17-19th Centuries

Willem VanGemeren writes:"Instead of a fixed position on Israel, Reformed theology shows a remarkable 'fluidity' on the future of Israel in the seventeenth to the nineteenth centuries."

Willem VanGemeren, "Israel as the Hermeneutical Crux in the Interpretation of Prophecy (II), Westminster Theological Journal, vol. 46, #2, Fall 1984, p. 255

VanGemeren writes:

". . . the seventeenth century witnessed a dynamic interest in the Jews on the part of Continental and British Reformed theologians who hoped for a large-scale conversion of the Jews and, in some cases, for a restoration of the Jews to Palestine before or after their conversion. . . ."

VanGemeren, 257

VanGemeren writes:

"Theologians as early as Voetius (1609-1676) fervently hoped for the conversion of the Jews. He believed that the Reformed community must deal responsibly with the Jews by giving itself to prayer, godliness, sound interpretation of the OT Scriptures, and sympathy towards the Jews."

VanGemeren, 255.

Specific theologians who held to a future restoration of Israel according to Van Den Berg include: Gisbertus Voetius (1589-1676), Johannes Hoornbeek (1617-1666), Andreas Essenius (1618-1677), Jacobus Koelman (1633-1695), and Johannes Coccejus (1603-1669), and Herman Witsius (1636-1708).

Van Den Berg, 141-48.

Jonathan Edwards

"Nothing is more certainly foretold than this national conversion of the Jews in Romans 11."

Jonathan Edwards, The Works of Jonathan Edwards, vol. 1, Banner of Truth Trust, reprint, 1976, 607.

Charles Hodge

"The second great event, which, according to the common faith or the Church, is to precede the second advent of Christ, is the national conversion of the Jews. . . . That there is to be such a national conversion may be argued. . . from the original call and destination of that people.

As the rejection of the Jews was not total, so neither is it final. First, God did not design to cast away his people entirely, but by their rejection, in the first place, to facilitate the progress of the gospel among the Gentiles. and ultimately to make the conversion of the Gentiles the means of converting the Jews. . . . Because if the rejection of the Jews has been a source of blessing, much more will their restoration be the means of good. . . .The restoration of the Jews to the privileges of God's people is included in the ancient predictions and promises made respecting them...

"The future restoration of the Jews is, in itself, a more probable event than the introduction of the Gentiles into the church of God."

Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, vol. 3, James Clark & Co. 1960, 805; A Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans, Presb. Board of Pub., 1836, 270-285 passim. Now Published by Banner of Truth Trust.

Charles H. Spurgeon

"I think we do not attach sufficient importance to the restoration of the Jews. We do not think enough of it. But certainly, if there is anything promised in the Bible it is this."

From first volume of Sermons, 1855, as cited in Iain Murray, The Puritan Hope, 256.

"The day shall yet come when the Jews, who were the first apostles to the Gentiles, the first missionaries to us who were afar off, shall be gathered in again. . . . Matchless benefits to the world are bound up with the restoration of Israel; their gathering in shall be as life from the dead."

Cited in Murray, 256.

C. E. B. Cranfield

"It is only where the Church persists in refusing to learn this message, where it secretly-perhaps quite unconsciously-believes that its own existence is based on human achievement, and so fails to understand God's mercy to itself, that it is unable to believe in God's mercy for still unbelieving Israel, and so entertains the ugly and unscriptural notion that God has cast off His people Israel and simply replaced it by the Christian Church. These three chapters [Rom. 9-11] emphatically forbid us to speak of the Church as having once and for all taken the place of the Jewish people."

C.E.B. Cranfield, A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans, in The International Critical Commentary, vol. 2 (Edinburgh: T & T Clark Limited, 1979) 448.

George E. Ladd

"The New Testament clearly affirms the salvation of literal Israel."

George Ladd, "Historic Premillennialism," in The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views, ed. Robert G. Clouse (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity, 1977), 28.

Karl Rahner

". . . the unfinished role of Israel in salvation history is also recognized (cf. Rom. 9-11)."

Karl Rahner, Foundations of Christian Faith: An Introduction to the Idea of Christianity. Trans. William V. Dych (New York: Seabury Press, 1978), 338.

J

[Guest yod]

*yawn*

that's the most arrogant statement in this thread

[Guest shiloh357]

You can yawn all you want Horizon, but the future of Israel is accepted even by nondispensationalists, living and dead. Many of them lived even before dispensationalsim existed.

[Guest shiloh357]

Ezekiel clearly states they are

[Guest shiloh357]

You can yawn all you want Horizon, but the future of Israel is accepted even by nondispensationalists, living and dead. Many of them lived even before dispensationalsim existed.

Your cut and past talents really do not work my friend. Very pass