Guest yod Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 No. All it takes is the knowledge that the animal sacrifices came to an end with the Crucifixion, and that the Levitical priesthood is now over forever. A study of the 7th chapter of Hebrews will make this clear. And human reasoning forces a contradiction just because you want to say that you have God figured out. You still haven't proven that Ezekial is speaking of anything that has already happened. Clearly, it hasn't. Until you can do that, I'm going to keep pointing it out. So obviously you think God made a boo-boo when writing Ezekial? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leoxiii Posted November 13, 2009 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 512 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/30/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/25/1955 Share Posted November 13, 2009 So obviously you think God made a boo-boo when writing Ezekial? No. I think you are making a boo-boo by preaching to others that animal sacrifices for sin and guilt will one day resume. I do not need to show you where in Ezekiel these things have already happened. They have. Christ is the fulfillment of the temple and the sacrifices. How is sacrificing an animal for my sins not a rejection of the finished work on the Cross? And Jesus breathed His last, saying, "It is finished..........but it will start up again one day." Nope. Uh-uh. Not buying it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 I do not need to show you where in Ezekiel these things have already happened. correction: you can't show it....because it hasn't. Therefore, you are saying that God made a mistake in writing Ezekial How is sacrificing an animal for my sins not a rejection of the finished work on the Cross? Again, not all sacrifices are/were for sin and there is nothing in Ezekial that says it's for you....so that is a moot point which has nothing to do with this conversation But you claim the authority to decide what God desires and why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leoxiii Posted November 13, 2009 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 512 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/30/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/25/1955 Share Posted November 13, 2009 I do not need to show you where in Ezekiel these things have already happened. correction: you can't show it....because it hasn't. Therefore, you are saying that God made a mistake in writing Ezekial That is one of the biggest fattest non-sequiturs I have ever seen. But, if the animal sacrifices for sin and guilt are not for me, who are they for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 So either it is yet future or God was "mistaken" There is a third option. You are mistaken. or you! Yes, human error is the most dependable or me. But God gave me the use of reason, and that reason tells me that it is ridiculous to think that animals will be sacrificed for sin and guilt with "the Lamb of God Who takes a way the sins of the world" "slain from the foundation of the world" sitting right there watching. He also gave me the ability to read. If this isn't future, then when did it happen? I'm not asking why He would do this....I'm asking if it has happened already. What does your human "reasoning" say? The vision of Ezekiel is a composite of the temple which Herod would build, and Jesus, who is our Temple. It takes a vivid imagination to arrive at that conclusion and it isn't even "reasoned" because the contradictions are so numerous. No. All it takes is the knowledge that the animal sacrifices came to an end with the Crucifixion, and that the Levitical priesthood is now over forever. A study of the 7th chapter of Hebrews will make this clear. Okay, now all you have to do is provide the biblical corroboration to support that. If what you are saying is true, you should have no problem finding Scripture in the NT that points to Ezekiel 40-48 and refers to it as a "composite temple." Absent that, all you have is a sloppy theoligical nonensical statement. The Bible does not say that the sacrifices ended with the death of Jesus. It does not even say that in Hebrews. What it says is that there is no longer any sin offering. It does not say the entire sacrificial system came to an end. In fact, it does not say that the Levitical priesthood came to an end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lekh l'kha Posted November 13, 2009 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 830 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/14/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted November 13, 2009 When will we know all truth? Leo, the apostle Paul gave you the answer to that question over 1,900 years ago when he wrote, "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (1Co 13:12). And I'm sorry I've been so hard on you about who you place your trust in and who you pray to - it's just that I know that for the sake of your own soul you mustn't pray to any goddess or dead people but only to God, through Jesus our Mediator and Interceder, who is God, and you shouldn't place your trust in anyone's doctrinal authority except the doctrinal authority of Christ and His apostles whose unadulterated teaching you will find in the Bible only. And sorry for taking this off topic, and I don't want to go into another topic, but I want you to know I don't disrespect you as a person, I'm just hard on those who place their trust in anyone except Christ, in the hopes that they will see the danger they place themselves in when they trust the doctrinal authority of any man who was born after the apostles or who led the churches after the apostles. Lekh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Jesus commanded the Apostles to preach, and then He commanded those who heard their preaching to believe what they heard. Surely the Apostles were protected by the Holy Spirit from preaching any error? For how could Jesus command anyone to believe error? But that does not mean that the Apostles were not in error at any other time. That is my point. Peter had to be reprimanded by Paul. Paul held a bitter grudge for some time against John Mark. Everything they wrote in Scripture is without error, but that does not mean that writings or sermons they preached, for which we do not have record of were free of error. This is the crux of the point I have been trying to make. 1). God commanded the Apostles to preach. 2). God (i) sent the Holy Spirit to ensure they would be led into all truth (ii) promised them He would be with them (iii) confirmed their preaching with signs (iv) opened their minds to a complete understanding of the Scriptures (v) commanded those who heard their preaching to believe what they heard, Yet 3). The Apostles nonetheless preached error. That is absolutely unacceptable. Not only that, but it is unfathomable to me how you can come to such a conclusion. Well since I am not a Catholic, I don't perpetuate an idolatrous view of the apostles that holds them to a level of infallibility the Bible does not give them. The only thing we are guaranteed is that the words of the aposltes in the Scripture canon are infallible and inerrant. We do not have any guarantee that what they said and taught that is not included in the canon of Scripture carries the same guarantee of infallibility or inerrancy. The apostles were men and were subject to the same foibles and weaknesses that we are all tied to as human beings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lekh l'kha Posted November 13, 2009 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 830 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/14/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted November 13, 2009 So either it is yet future or God was "mistaken" There is a third option. You are mistaken. or you! Yes, human error is the most dependable or me. But God gave me the use of reason, and that reason tells me that it is ridiculous to think that animals will be sacrificed for sin and guilt with "the Lamb of God Who takes a way the sins of the world" "slain from the foundation of the world" sitting right there watching. He also gave me the ability to read. If this isn't future, then when did it happen? I'm not asking why He would do this....I'm asking if it has happened already. What does your human "reasoning" say? The vision of Ezekiel is a composite of the temple which Herod would build, and Jesus, who is our Temple. It takes a vivid imagination to arrive at that conclusion and it isn't even "reasoned" because the contradictions are so numerous. No. All it takes is the knowledge that the animal sacrifices came to an end with the Crucifixion, and that the Levitical priesthood is now over forever. A study of the 7th chapter of Hebrews will make this clear. Okay, now all you have to do is provide the biblical corroboration to support that. If what you are saying is true, you should have no problem finding Scripture in the NT that points to Ezekiel 40-48 and refers to it as a "composite temple." Absent that, all you have is a sloppy theoligical nonensical statement. The Bible does not say that the sacrifices ended with the death of Jesus. It does not even say that in Hebrews. What it says is that there is no longer any sin offering. It does not say the entire sacrificial system came to an end. In fact, it does not say that the Levitical priesthood came to an end. I understand what shiloh is trying to help us to understand. Christians have been brainwashed for a very long time (over a thousands years) by misinterpretations and misrepresentations of large portions of apostloic teaching and Biblical scripture. We certainly cannot spiritualize Ezekiel's prophecies (and all the other prophecies in the Bible which reconfirm many of the things Ezekiel prophesied) merely in order to make them fit our preconceived beliefs and ideas about the way we think things are or should be. We have to allow Biblical scripture to mould our thinking instead of trying to mould Biblical scripture by our thinking. The closer we come to the return of Christ, the stronger the move of the Holy Spirit has become directing His saints back to the root of their faith - the root from which it was gradually torn by the Church after the days of the apostles. We have to allow Biblical scripture to mould our thinking instead of trying to mould Biblical scripture by our thinking. Leo, if what you say is true, then instead of harmony between the Old Testament and the New Testament, there are many contradictions between the Old Testament and the New Testament (Ezekiel's prophecy compared with the book of Hebrews being a prime example). But the Bible contains NO contradictions - if there seems to be a contradiction, then that seeming contradiction is symptomatic of the fact that somewhere along the line we are misunderstanding something. The very division of the Bible into "Old Testament" and "New Testament" is an error and extremely deceptive - because what we call "the Old Testament" contains a great deal more than just the covenant God made with the Israelites at Mount Sinai - there are four other covenants + history, wisdom literature, and great deal of prophecy. And there are not only two stages in the coming of the Kingdom of God/Christ into the world. The Bible identifies at least seven stages: 1. The calling and eternal election of Abraham and his seed through Isaac (and, later, through Jacob). 2. The birth of Isaac. 2. The giving of the Law (which consists of some laws which are eternal and some which are not), and the erection of the tabernacle in the wilderness. 3. The coming of the heavenly temple into the world and His sacrificial death and resurrection. 4. The church-age in which the gospel is preached in all the world as a witness to all nations. The church = the temple. 5. The return of Christ and the erection of the millennial temple. 6. The final great white throne judgment and the ushering in of the eternal age. 7. There is no need for a temple for God and His Christ are its temple. I'm not saying the above are the seven stages - I'm only saying that there is more to it than most Gentile Christians realize, thanks to the fact that the Church gradually tore the Gentiles away from the root of their faith. The New Covenant did not replace every commandment, statute and oracle of God. It brought FREE salvation, "apart from law" (Rom.3: 21). Put James 1: 5 into practice daily and stop blindly following the teaching of .... (you fill in the blanks) - you'll find it helps. Lekh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leoxiii Posted November 14, 2009 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 512 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/30/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/25/1955 Share Posted November 14, 2009 The Bible does not say that the sacrifices ended with the death of Jesus. It does not even say that in Hebrews. What it says is that there is no longer any sin offering. It does not say the entire sacrificial system came to an end. In fact, it does not say that the Levitical priesthood came to an end. Again. You need to study Hebrews ch. 7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 The Bible does not say that the sacrifices ended with the death of Jesus. It does not even say that in Hebrews. What it says is that there is no longer any sin offering. It does not say the entire sacrificial system came to an end. In fact, it does not say that the Levitical priesthood came to an end. Again. You need to study Hebrews ch. 7. I have, and it does not say that the sacrifices have come to and end, that is not even the point the writer of Heb. is trying to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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