Saved_by_Jesus Posted November 18, 2009 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 97 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/07/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/09/1964 Author Share Posted November 18, 2009 If we have a relationship with Jesus, our joy is in knowing Him, and not based upon feelings. And that's a fact! Blessings, Nikki Hi Nikki, If I may pose a question here - what is joy? Is it not something that we feel? I agree that our faith and salvation are a fact, but we are human beings, not robots, designed by God to have feelings. IMHO, to know Jesus is to love Jesus - I don't see how the two are separated. You are correct that just because we don't "feel" God's presence does not mean that He is not there. He is indeed always there for us. Yet we all experience those desert times when we don't feel Him - and other times when we can feel His presence so strongly that it overwhelms us. Other times we get angry with God. We can not remove our feelings from our relationship with God any more than we can from our relationship with our spouses. God designed us this way. AMEN!! I hate the "desert times" I get, and long for the warm closeness I've felt in the past-but relying on those feelings would be dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikki1 Posted November 18, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 98 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,260 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 55 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted November 18, 2009 If we have a relationship with Jesus, our joy is in knowing Him, and not based upon feelings. And that's a fact! Blessings, Nikki Hi Nikki, If I may pose a question here - what is joy? Is it not something that we feel? I agree that our faith and salvation are a fact, but we are human beings, not robots, designed by God to have feelings. IMHO, to know Jesus is to love Jesus - I don't see how the two are separated. You are correct that just because we don't "feel" God's presence does not mean that He is not there. He is indeed always there for us. Yet we all experience those desert times when we don't feel Him - and other times when we can feel His presence so strongly that it overwhelms us. Other times we get angry with God. We can not remove our feelings from our relationship with God any more than we can from our relationship with our spouses. God designed us this way. Hi JPI John MacArthur gives this definition of joy Biblical joy consists of the deep and abiding confidence that all is well regardless of circumstance and difficulty. It is something very different from worldly happiness. Biblical joy is always related to God and belongs only to those in Christ. It is the permanent possession of every believer--not a whimsical delight that comes and goes as chance offers it opportunity. A good definition of joy is this: it's the flag that flies on the castle of the heart when the King is in residence. Only Christians can know true and lasting joy. A Christian's joy is a gift from God to those who believe the gospel, being produced in them by the Holy Spirit as they receive and obey the Word, being mixed with trials with a hope set on future glory. I have gone through the desert several times and even though I did not "feel" God, there were lessons He was teaching me, and He always brought me out of the desert to safety, filled with joy. I think all Christians have to go through those desert times to grow and learn how to depend upon God, even if we don't "feel" His presence. He is just there and I think that is what he wants us to learn and know. When the next trial comes, and it surely will, we will not doubt if we don't "feel" his presence, because as the Bible teaches, true faith in Jesus is not based upon feelings. Blessings, Nikki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP1 Posted November 18, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 432 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 130 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/06/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1962 Share Posted November 18, 2009 The whole point I was trying to make was how people lecture you when you say "I don't FEEL God's presence"....they do like you just did-saying how we are to base our faith on fact, not feelings. Yet, if someone had said..."Wow! The presence of the Holy Spirit was so strong in my church today!"....it would not have caused you to mention how we are to base our faith on feelings. See what I mean? That was the point of the topic. I was just wondering if people do that because one is a negative comment, rather than a positive one. Good way to make a point! I don't personally know anyone that has had a long time relationship with Christ that has not gone through a "dry spell". Some have gone through dry spells that last years. Those times exactly like you described - where you long for that feeling (yes, I used that word) you had when you first came to Christ. I remember it - I wanted to shout my joy from the top of the highest building. The love pouring over me was overwhelming. A decade later I would be lying if I told you every day of my life was like that. What you are experiencing is normal. I think others are just pointing out that just because you do not "feel" that overwhelming love like you did when you were a babe in Christ does not meant that that overwhelming love has been withdrawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiritman Posted November 18, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 127 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,131 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 23 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/22/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/25/1962 Share Posted November 18, 2009 To me it depends on which topic your talking about. For example if someone that's a Christian says; " I don't feel saved", when the Bible says; that the Holy Spirit is sealed in you until the day", And Jesus said; "I will never leave you even until the end of the age". Then going on feelings is not a good thing. Anytime your feelings go against scripture it is not a good thing. But feeling Love for someone, is always a good thing. Feeling angry might not be a good thing depending on what your angry over. I guess there is such a thing as righteous anger. Sadness, sometimes I can't help that one. I guess as long as we live in these fleshly bodies we are going to have a wide range of feelings. I guess the trick is to keep scripture close at hand to determine whether or not those feelings are warranted. Thanks Spiritman! Great comments! I know it's going to be so awesome to be in God's presence and have those feelings ALL the time, huh?! Woohoo!! Amen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saved_by_Jesus Posted November 18, 2009 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 97 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/07/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/09/1964 Author Share Posted November 18, 2009 I've always wondered why many (not all) Christians really steer clear and condone the word "feelings" when it comes to Christianity? It's like it is a dirty word among Christians! Huh. This is the first that I have heard about this. The word love in reference to God is mentioned many times in the Bible, and isn't love something you feel? Very interesting that some people avoid the term. Try an experiment and you'll see what I mean. Walk up to a Christian friend or pastor, and say..."I just don't feel the presence of God anymore....." and watch how they go on and on about how we are not to worry about feelings" Then, try a different experiment....walk up and say "Wow! I got up today and really felt God's presence strongly! Praise God!" and see what they say then. Do they go on and on about how we are not to rely on feelings? Or do they say..."Really? That's so wonderful! God is good!" or something like that. It was just an interesting thing I noticed about how, when the word "feelings" is mentioned in regards to God's presence. Just an observation really. Just wondered if anyone else ever noticed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP1 Posted November 18, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 432 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 130 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/06/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1962 Share Posted November 18, 2009 I have gone through the desert several times and even though I did not "feel" God, there were lessons He was teaching me, and He always brought me out of the desert to safety, filled with joy. I think all Christians have to go through those desert times to grow and learn how to depend upon God, even if we don't "feel" His presence. He is just there and I think that is what he wants us to learn and know. When the next trial comes, and it surely will, we will not doubt if we don't "feel" his presence, because as the Bible teaches, true faith in Jesus is not based upon feelings. Blessings, Nikki I agree with you 100%. My point was that we cannot remove feelings from the equation. We are human beings. However, our faith is not based on those feelings. I don't believe that there is anyone here claiming it is, including the one who posed the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikki1 Posted November 18, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 98 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,260 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 55 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted November 18, 2009 Blessings, Faith is based upon trusting Jesus, who is the Living Word, and not feelings; so I don't really believe feelings has anything to do with one's faith in Jesus, nor can one go by feelings. Feelings are based upon emotions, and have their roots in humanistic psychological dynamics which cause one to act or react + or - to a situation. Feelings can be a very deceptive emotion and are not always based upon facts. Because you don't feel God's presence does not mean he is not there. The Bible tells us that Jesus will never leave or forsake us in Hebrews 13:5 King James Version 5Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. That is not a feeling, but a fact if we believe it. If we have a relationship with Jesus, our joy is in knowing Him, and not based upon feelings. And that's a fact! Blessings, Nikki *smiles* Thank you for your reply Nikki,but as I said, this was not meant to be an argument over how we are to base our faith on fact and not feelings. The whole point I was trying to make was how people lecture you when you say "I don't FEEL God's presence"....they do like you just did-saying how we are to base our faith on fact, not feelings. Yet, if someone had said..."Wow! The presence of the Holy Spirit was so strong in my church today!"....it would not have caused you to mention how we are to base our faith on feelings. See what I mean? That was the point of the topic. I was just wondering if people do that because one is a negative comment, rather than a positive one. Blessings, You are very welcome. I think I probably misunderstood what you meant, apologies from me to you; I didn't realize that biblical fact over feelings were not to be expressed. Blessings to you Nikki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikki1 Posted November 18, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 98 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,260 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 55 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted November 18, 2009 I have gone through the desert several times and even though I did not "feel" God, there were lessons He was teaching me, and He always brought me out of the desert to safety, filled with joy. I think all Christians have to go through those desert times to grow and learn how to depend upon God, even if we don't "feel" His presence. He is just there and I think that is what he wants us to learn and know. When the next trial comes, and it surely will, we will not doubt if we don't "feel" his presence, because as the Bible teaches, true faith in Jesus is not based upon feelings. Blessings, Nikki I agree with you 100%. My point was that we cannot remove feelings from the equation. We are human beings. However, our faith is not based on those feelings. I don't believe that there is anyone here claiming it is, including the one who posed the question. I see what you are saying, and I agree with that also. We still have human feelings, but my point is that as you grow in the Lord you will come to know that your faith does not depend upon feelings. But the O.P. does not want this expressed, so I will leave it at that. Blessings, Nikki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blien Posted November 18, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 346 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,050 Content Per Day: 0.50 Reputation: 46 Days Won: 3 Joined: 10/02/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/26/1982 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Something I've noticed... knowledge puffs up (1 Cor 8:1) as the Bible says. The more knowledgeable one person is, the less emotional they get. And as I've come to recently notice, the less "on fire" they are for God. Seriously. I am one of these people. I'm not anywhere near "on fire" as I was for God when I first had the feelings of being with Him. Now I even doubt my salvation. Today I heard a sermon by a supposed cult.. (which made a very good point anyway). In the garden of Eden, there was 2 tress right? What where they? 1. The Tree of Life - which is the image of God 2. The Tree of KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil - which puffs up (1 Cor 8:1), and as God says, will cause Death if touched.. wow. So I find myself really in a rut. I don't know if this is the answer to your question. But like I said, I've noticed those individuals who (I love very much) know not as much as I do about the Bible are soo on fire and HAVE the Spirit of God. I can feel it when listening to them and seeing their actions. Yet when I examine myself... I doubt that I too have the Spirit. Thank you for your reply! I knew someone else out there has noticed this! I totally understand what you are saying too.....when I converted, I was baptized in the Spirit. The "experience" was totally amazing-I was having dreams, and seeing visions, and "felt" God's love pour all over me, like liquid love. I had a strong "feeling" of a "connection" with God,and I had so much love for other people-all I wanted was to love other people and see them saved. It was so wonderful! Those "feelings" lasted for many months....and little by little, they faded away. And, like you, I don't sense the Holy Spirit anymore. I know that God says He will never leave or forsake us.....but it sure makes you wonder why we can't have that joy and those wonderful warm fuzzy feelings all the time like when we first came to Jesus! When you do have those wonderful feelings, and they disappear, it makes you wonder if you are "still saved"....which is exactly what Satan wants us to think. It's very scary, and I've wondered it myself for a very long time. It's so very seldom that I "feel" the Spirit anymore, and I certainly don't have the love I used to have for other people. I've wondered if, when things like this happen, that we are in the "Wilderness" part of our journey with Christ? Like the Israelites going to the Promised Land.....? I said something like this to a girl at church who is very "spirit filled" all the time. I said...."It would be so awesome if we could have those same feelings that we had when we first came to Christ,huh?" and she looked at me like I was crazy,and said....."What to you mean? I have those feelings all the time!" But then when I said that my wonderful warm fuzzy Holy Spirit feelings had gone away, I got the whole lecture on how we are not supposed to rely on our feelings. lol Sorry I haven't read what everyone else said after SpiritMan. I wanted to share my story with you. We are very similar in the sense that this is exactly what happened to me. Unfortunately, I almost lost the feeling of the Holy Spirit's presence the first day I felt it - the day I was saved. I was chatting with a "friend" online and he was saying some really ungodly things... and as I was reading it, I heard the Spirit tell (command) me "Don't say these words" meaning, DO NOT read these words out loud. But I did what was natural and just continued doing what I was already doing before those words which was reading them out loud. Well... what happened next was most horrifying. I FELT the Spirit ascending from my body leaving me... and I begged with Him to stay with me (much in the way that David did in his Psalm 51:11) but He was gone. So after that day I felt the fire slowly die down gradually over the period of 2 years... until here I am this day. Without a lick of passionate flame as it once was before... Don't get me wrong, I still love the Lord with all my heart!!!! But it's not excellent and supernatural like it was before - not the same. I hate it. I want to share something else with you. I'm not one who believes that "once saved always saved" as some believers do.. because of my experience with the Holy Spirit (which is like yours), it really made me think exactly what it means to be saved and how-to be saved, forever. So yesterday, the Lord led me to see this video.. I think it might open your eyes to our situation brother. Now I'm seeking to get this SEALING.. if anything happens to me soon. I'll let you know via pm or otherwise. Derek Prince - Immersion in the Spirit. http://www.tangle.com/view_video?viewkey=9...2f310ab0723b65b By the way, I'm no Bible expert but I read the book of Acts last night to see if what this man said was true and I could not find any area's in my small reading last night to prove him wrong. So I believe what he says is true! GOD BLESS YOU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saved_by_Jesus Posted November 18, 2009 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 97 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/07/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/09/1964 Author Share Posted November 18, 2009 I have gone through the desert several times and even though I did not "feel" God, there were lessons He was teaching me, and He always brought me out of the desert to safety, filled with joy. I think all Christians have to go through those desert times to grow and learn how to depend upon God, even if we don't "feel" His presence. He is just there and I think that is what he wants us to learn and know. When the next trial comes, and it surely will, we will not doubt if we don't "feel" his presence, because as the Bible teaches, true faith in Jesus is not based upon feelings. Blessings, Nikki I agree with you 100%. My point was that we cannot remove feelings from the equation. We are human beings. However, our faith is not based on those feelings. I don't believe that there is anyone here claiming it is, including the one who posed the question. I see what you are saying, and I agree with that also. We still have human feelings, but my point is that as you grow in the Lord you will come to know that your faith does not depend upon feelings. But the O.P. does not want this expressed, so I will leave it at that. Blessings, Nikki Yes Nikki-our faith does NOT depend on feelings....like I mentioned in my original post, and this was not meant to start any sort of argument about who is right, or who is wrong, because we are ALL agreeing here that our faith is based on fact, not feeling. Let me ask you this though....remember when you came to Christ originally? Remember how good you felt? Do you still have those exact feelings every day, all day? Of course you don't. Have you ever mentioned anything like that to anyone else, and got "the lecture" about how we are not to live by feelings? The point of this discussion is about the word "feelings" in relation to other's reaction when we mention that word. NOT on whether we base our faith on what we feel every day. I'm sorry-I thought I had worded the topic well enough that I was clear on what I was trying to say, but I guess I didn't. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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