Clarification on OT/NT Laws

[Guest yod]

Here is the question....For over 2000 years many practicing Judamism Jews have died....millions...Knowing that Jesus Christ is the way, truth, and life...Are they in Heaven or in eternal punishment of hell? When they answer this question...you will know where they stand with Jesus Christ....

"There is but one name under heaven by which man can be saved"

These were the words of a jewish man...just like the rest of the bible that you are trying to turn into a greco-humanistic premise to support prejudice and bigotry; even from christians.

This is only more proof of the arrogance and intellectual dishonesty of replacement theology.

[Guest shiloh357]

Here is the question....For over 2000 years many practicing Judamism Jews have died....millions...Knowing that Jesus Christ is the way, truth, and life...Are they in Heaven or in eternal punishment of hell? When they answer this question...you will know where they stand with Jesus Christ....

Here is the answer: For over 2000 years, practicing Judaism Jews have been murdered, tortured, impoverished, expelled from nearly every Christian nation under the sun and all of it at the hands of professing Christians. They have been blamed for plagues, natural disasters, and almost every other woe that has befallen humanity. They have been dehumanized as the most cursed people on earth, they have been the victims of Christian-instigated pogroms and have continuously been persecuted as the "murderers of Christ."

They were forced to watch as their Rabbis were tied to stakes by "Christian" crusaders and burned alive with their Torah scrolls wrapped around them. They were herded into synagogues which were set ablaze while Christians danced singing "Christ we adore thee." All of this was done with the approval of Church leadership. Much of this persecution was fueled by men like John Chrysostom who taught that it was the duty of all Christians to hate the Jews.

Then of course was the deafening Christian silence during the years that Hitler murdering Jews by the millions and claiming that he was just finishing the work begun by Martin Luther.

Yeah, I cannot imagine why Jews would not want to be Christians. The problem is that Jewish rejection of Jesus does not occur in a vacuum and in many cases, their unbelief is only reinforced by "Christians" who run off at the mouth about the Jews being cursed (not unlike the anti-Semitic church leadership of more than 1,700 years ago). As for separating the sheep from the goats... biblicly, the sheep are those who blessed the Jewish people. The goats are those who have nothing but contempt for the Jews.

"Those who bless you, I will bless; those who curse you I will curse." (Gen. 12:3)

[Press Forward]

Errr... I don't have the foggiest clue

Muslims believe there going to heaven..Jews believe their going to heaven?...Pretty much every religion thinks their going to heaven...

I believe if they died in their sins...they perished...to eternal damnation...for the past 2000 years...millions of muslims and jews have perished to eternal damnation....WHAT TO YOU BELIEVE?

How do you feel about Jesus Christ damning these souls?

That is why Jesus said you must love me with all your heart, all you mind, all your soul, and all your strength.... and don't fear them that can take your life...but fear him that controls your eternal destination...eternal Life...eternal damnation...

I knew I wouldn't get a straight answer...some of you don't even believe in hell......the Cross is foolishness to the nation of Israel

but you believe Jesus has his protective hand over Israel...

when God came on earth in the form of Jesus Christ...he came for one purpose to save mankind from his wrath...all mankind...muslim, jew, everybody....

How do you explain all the souls in eternal damnation...being chosen of Almighty Jesus....There just seems something weird to this...You believe Jesus loves Israel...and Israel is his chosen nation....and has always been has chosen nation and people but millions upon millions of these chosen people have been cast to eternal damnation...How does one explain that?

how many million jews and muslims have died in the last 2000 years...that is a long time and a lot of souls...

..

[Press Forward]

Here is the answer: For over 2000 years, practicing Judaism Jews have been murdered, tortured, impoverished, expelled from nearly every Christian nation under the sun and all of it at the hands of professing Christians. They have been blamed for plagues, natural disasters, and almost every other woe that has befallen humanity. They have been dehumanized as the most cursed people on earth, they have been the victims of Christian-instigated pogroms and have continuously been persecuted as the "murderers of Christ."

They were forced to watch as their Rabbis were tied to stakes by "Christian" crusaders and burned alive with their Torah scrolls wrapped around them. They were herded into synagogues which were set ablaze while Christians danced singing "Christ we adore thee." All of this was done with the approval of Church leadership. Much of this persecution was fueled by men like John Chrysostom who taught that it was the duty of all Christians to hate the Jews.

Then of course was the deafening Christian silence during the years that Hitler murdering Jews by the millions and claiming that he was just finishing the work begun by Martin Luther.

Yeah, I cannot imagine why Jews would not want to be Christians. The problem is that Jewish rejection of Jesus does not occur in a vacuum and in many cases, their unbelief is only reinforced by "Christians" who run off at the mouth about the Jews being cursed (not unlike the anti-Semitic church leadership of more than 1,700 years ago). As for separating the sheep from the goats... biblicly, the sheep are those who blessed the Jewish people. The goats are those who have nothing but contempt for the Jews.

"Those who bless you, I will bless; those who curse you I will curse." (Gen. 12:3)

You believe once saved always saved. So I guess you believe the christians are in heaven. How about the jews that suffered these horrible acts?

I believe what the bible says.

Revelation 21:8 NIV

[Botz]

Well Botz

[lekh l'kha]

Errr... I don't have the foggiest clue

... believe there going to heaven..

I believe if they died in their sins...they perished...to eternal damnation...for the past 2000 years...millions of muslims and jews have perished to eternal damnation....WHAT TO YOU BELIEVE?

How do you feel about Jesus Christ damning these souls?

The same way He feels - probably not, because I'm still someone with sin, which is selfish - but He had no sin and He cannot sin - so it probably breaks His heart infinitely more times as much as it breaks mine - but then, He has a much, much bigger heart.

How do you explain all the souls in eternal damnation...being chosen of Almighty Jesus....There just seems something weird to this...You believe Jesus loves Israel...and Israel is his chosen nation....and has always been has chosen nation and people but millions upon millions of these chosen people have been cast to eternal damnation...How does one explain that?

Press Forward, try and look at this without emotion, and only logic:

YOU AND I ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM. THE SEED OF ABRAHAM = ISRAEL. IF THE KINGDOM HAS BEEN TAKEN FROM ISRAEL (THE SEED OF ABRAHAM), THEN YOU AND I ARE NOT SAVED.

Shiloh357, Yod, Botz, me - NOT ONE OF US believes or has said that a Jew who does not believe in Jesus goes to heaven. What we're saying is what the Bible says - that God's chosen nation is Israel. The physical seed of Abraham (Israel) who do not believe in Jesus are broken off from Israel, an d are not saved.

YOU READ THINGS INTO WHAT WE SAY THAT WE DO NOT SAY.

YOU SAY "the kingdom has been taken from Israel". How can that be? How can YOU be grafted into Israel among the believing remnant of Israel's physical seed (Rom.11: 17) if the Kingdom has been taken from Israel?

WHO IS ISRAEL?

Israel is:

1. the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - THOUGH THERE ONLY BE A TINY REMNANT LEFT WHO HAVE NOT BEEN BROKEN OFF; and

2. All believing Gentiles who are grafted into Israel among the remnant who are not broken off from Israel.

When did Israel come into being?

It came into being when Isaac was born.

When was the Kingdom taken from Israel (the seed of Abraham).

Never - otherwise it would mean NOTHING for Gentiles to become the seed of Abraham.

Who was the kingdom taken from?

The religious leaders of Israel who sat in Moses' seat, and all the physical seed which reject the Messiah.

Please stop assuming that because I and others believe all of the above facts, that we believe that Jews who reject Jesus will be in heaven.

Do you know that just as it is possible for Jesus to have loved ALL His apostles and yet had a special love for "the disciple He loved", so it is possible for Jesus to love ALL mankind, yet He has a special love for the Jews? No, you can't accept that, nor can you understand it - because YOU are partially blinded to the FULL counsel of God regarding the Messiah of Israel, just as the UNBELIVING Jews are partially blinded to the full counsel of God.

What I've said IS Biblical - Jesus has a special love for Jews, though He loves ALL mankind - but you will NEVER understand it - because of your partial blindness, thinking there is a NEW Israel, and refusing to accept the Biblical truth that YOU are grafted into a JEWISH Olive tree.

[Botz]

Well Botz you will need to clarify your terminology

[Guest shiloh357]

You believe once saved always saved. So I guess you believe the christians are in heaven. How about the jews that suffered these horrible acts?

I don't believe the early church fathers or many of those professing Christians were anything of the sort, which is why I referred to them as "professing Christians." A lot of people profess Christianity. That does not make them genuine followers of Christ. In fact, no one who hates Jews is a Christian regardless of what they profess. Unfortunately, many Jews have gone to hell because so called "Christians" have accused the Jews of being a cursed people.

I believe what the bible says.

No, you don't. God says that they are the apple of His eye. He loves the Jewish people. You do nothing but condemn them.

Revelation 21:8 NIV

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Jan 4 2010, 04:26 PM)

It was the Jewish leadership that rejected Jesus.

Wrong once again

[Botz]

LOL - you continue to talk in vague riddles here, Botz – ie – “sanitized white Christian Christ”. What does that mean exactly? Is there also a sanitized black Christian Christ or a sanitized Hispanic/brown/red Christian Christ or are 'white-guys' your only target today?

Hardly a riddle Horizon....I am sure you must understand what I am getting at, but to give you the benefit of any doubt, I will try to choose my words more carefully....thus..... I have seen Christians valiantly trying to proclaim the gospel to Jewish people using Western Churchified terminology, that is so divorced from the Yeshua ben Yosef of the New Covenant, those listening to them think this Jesus Christ on offer is not even Jewish, and has nothing to do with the Old Covenant prophecies...and if you have visited Israel you will be aware that the Jesus on offer at most of the Orthodox Churches is by and large a virulent anti-Semite with clean-cut European features and even blue-eyes sometimes...effigies vary!

Are you suggesting Christians must convert to Judaism in order to witness to Jews?

Do you think these things up as you go along Of course I am not saying that.

And what “past treatment at the hands of Christians” do you refer? Shiloh’s “outline” tends to be an oversimplification and misrepresentation of the historical reality. Do you really think true Christians persecute Jews or any other ethnic group? Were the executioners of the Inquisition Christians? Does Christ call us to violence, prejudice and mayhem? Are all who claim the name “Christian” really Christian?

Actually I think Shiloh's brief synopsis was consistent with historical reality, and gave a glimpse into what the Jewish people have suffered at the hands of Christians.

I think some were true Believer's and some were not...but what they did, they did in the name of Christ, and one of the things the Jewish people have is a 'long memory'.

Quite frankly I have seen the same blindness/arrogance/hatred prevalent in many bodies of Believers today...some of whom I would say were religious and not necessarily 'born again Believers' but others approach from a more subtle direction, often in ignorance, and promote or subscribe to what is commonly called 'Replacement Theology'....which as you are well aware, attempts to show that the Church has replaced Israel, because of her disobedience, and G-d has finished with Israel, and the Church has inherited/usurped all the promises pertaining to her.

The mentality of some on this board borders on the bazaar when they make the claim that Christians through the ages systemically persecuted the Jews. I think they misunderstand who and what constitutes a “Christian”. The bias I see on this board from those who should know better with their so-called “Gentilized gospel”, “greco-humanistic teachings”, etc borders on the absurd. I hope you do not remain with that backward-thinking cadre.

I don't think the Jews were too fussed to find out if the Christians killing and harassing them were true Believers...they just noted that they called Jews Christ Killers, and treated them like scum...and equated this with what Christians truly think of Jews, culminating in the Shoah, where people called Christian, would break off from their genocide, to be with their families and go to Christian church meetings, from which the Jews outside could hear the sweet melodies of songs to Christ.

Now I know it wasn't all like this, and there were true Believers who would lay down their lives for them....but overall this is the overriding impression many Jews have had of most Christians....I know I've lived amongst them.

I hate to disappoint, but I am afraid you will have to label me with those you refer to as 'that backward thinking cadre'.

When I (a Gentile) obeyed the gospel of Christ and became “Abraham's seed according to promise” what promise from God did I have to forfeit as a Gentile Christian that a Jewish Christian receives? You didn’t answer my prior questions addressed to you. Do you agree that *all spiritual blessings* are found “in Christ” – i.e., in the Lord’s church? What “spiritual blessing” outside of the “all blessings” we have in the body of Christ do you think the Jews have that remains yet future?

I try to answer everything, but could not answer this, because I really don't understand it, and still can't because I don't know what you are on about...I presume you are referencing Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him

Are you suggesting Gentile believers remain "unnatural branches"? Is the body of Christ class-segregated or are Jew and Gentile truly one “in Christ” as Paul states? Are Jew and Gentile both “Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise” or are Gentiles bastard children? If I am Abraham's seed according to promise (and I am through the blood of Christ) then am I not a “natural branch” – part of the Israel of God?

Well if you would like to show me in Romans where Paul clearly says that the Gentiles grafted in amongst the natural branches, are now 'natural' branches I will concede...but what I read is ...24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

Both Believing Jews and Believing Gentiles...thus both the natural olive branches and the wild olive branches are sustained by the root which is Messiah...both parties can recognise where they have come from, and who it is that upholds them...any boasting either of the branches has, is only in Messiah. I have no problem with that concept at all...but you seem to get your knickers in a twist....excuse me,...you seem to need to know you are just as accepted in Messiah as the Jews are, and appear insecure in recognizing a certain natural order...eg, to the Jew first....and also to the Gentile! It is not class segregation of any sort, and Gentiles are not the 'lesser children' of G-d.

I love the expression already mentioned that the Jewish people are the 'Apple of G-ds Eye'.

Are you suggesting that Gentiles who are “grafted in” do not become “natural” – do they remain unnatural? If Jew and Gentile are both one “in Christ” – if Jew and Gentile “in Christ” are both “Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise” – what is the “obvious” distinction between Jew and Gentile? Can God raise up children to Abraham from the rocks?

Naturally G-d can raise up children from the rocks...I believe it was a hyperbole expression though, and used in an effort to get those Jews whom He was addressing, thinking beyond their outward display of piety and godliness....a bit of a wake up call if you like. Both Jew and Gentile arrive at Messiah through 'faith'....the same faith that Abraham displayed when he believed G-d, and it was imputed to him as righteousness.

I don't believe the Scripture indicates that the wild olive branches become natural olive branches...that was not the point of the illustration...both now draw from the root which is Messiah...He is 'our' sustenance.