SPECIFIC REASONS Christ Returns Right Now.

[One Way]

Thanks DadE. I understand pre-mil and amil and all of the "isms" that people classify themselves into.

But, unless I missed it, you didn't provide me with any scriptural data or proof that would lend itself to Jesus' earthly ministry being the 1st half of the 70th week. So far all you have given me is your word on it, and I need something a little stronger than that. :t:

I'm quite firmly locked into my position, but always willing to make adjustments when I find it necessary. I have to say that, after the study I've done on this subject already, I have high, high doubts about your chronology of events (and even of the substance of the events themselves), but you certainly deserve a fair hearing.

Thanks.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings One Way,

But, unless I missed it, you didn't provide me with any scriptural data or proof that would lend itself to Jesus' earthly ministry being the 1st half of the 70th week. So far all you have given me is your word on it, and I need something a little stronger than that.

I thought I had made myself clear. Sorry. We know that Messiah Jesus came at the END of the 69th week. On that we agree. I see Jesus ministry, actually beginning at the "marriage at Cana". This was the FIRST of Jesus many miracles and from here He began his ministry to the Jews. One of the things we see consistently in Jesus ministry, is His impecable timing of everything He was sent by the Father to do. He came in the fulness of time. Look at his comments to His mother:

John 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

Look when he started to preach:

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

John 7:6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.

John 7:8 Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come.

The point being is that the "time" of His preaching to Israel a message of repentance, the Kingdom of God is at hand, until the cross was 3 1/2 years. Again refer back to Daniel. It was Messiah that would bring in Righteousness to Israel. Well, Israel rejected Him the first time, but now the Gospel of Jesus Christ is given to the gentile church, and at the "fulness of the gentiles", shall their heart be changed to receive the gospel which will complete Jesus ministry to reconcile the Jews to God in Righteousness. I can't make it any more clear than that.

Another interesting point is Jesus' references to Elijah. Is it coincidence or NOT, that Jesus makes reference to 3 1/2 years? Particularly seeing as how the "two witnesses" will be anointed with the Elijah spirit.

Luke 4:25-26 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; 26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.

Sounds like a reference to a severe time of tribulation to me.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[whatsitmean]

The end of the 69th week is FIXED on the day of the triumphant entry. The prophecy has a specific start, duration and end date. There is no changing them or moving them around to fit your plan. ONE DAY. Psa 118:24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. Jesus said the city would be destroyed because they did not know the day of thier visitation. Luke 19:42 They were told what day it would be, and they were expected by God to know it.

As you point on every other occasion when Jesus could have revealed Him self, he did not until one day when he said, "I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out". (Luke 19:40)

[One Way]

I thought I had made myself clear. Sorry. We know that Messiah Jesus came at the END of the 69th week. On that we agree. I see Jesus ministry, actually beginning at the "marriage at Cana". This was the FIRST of Jesus many miracles and from here He began his ministry to the Jews. One of the things we see consistently in Jesus ministry, is His impecable timing of everything He was sent by the Father to do. He came in the fulness of time. Look at his comments to His mother:

John 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

Look when he started to preach:

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

John 7:6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.

John 7:8 Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come.

The point being is that the "time" of His preaching to Israel a message of repentance, the Kingdom of God is at hand, until the cross was 3 1/2 years. Again refer back to Daniel. It was Messiah that would bring in Righteousness to Israel. Well, Israel rejected Him the first time, but now the Gospel of Jesus Christ is given to the gentile church, and at the "fulness of the gentiles", shall their heart be changed to receive the gospel which will complete Jesus ministry to reconcile the Jews to God in Righteousness. I can't make it any more clear than that.

Another interesting point is Jesus' references to Elijah. Is it coincidence or NOT, that Jesus makes reference to 3 1/2 years? Particularly seeing as how the "two witnesses" will be anointed with the Elijah spirit.

Luke 4:25-26 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; 26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.

Sounds like a reference to a severe time of tribulation to me.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

DadE, let me first say that I am thankful for your last few posts. They are were simple statements about your view of eschatology and they were delivered in a sincere fashion. They have been received. :t:

Here is where my difficulty lies.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This passage is referring to the AC. It says that he will make a covenant with Israel for one week and then break that covenant at the halfway point. So, I don't see how this fits in with the earthly ministry of our Lord Jesus.

If, as you say, the earthly ministry of Jesus was the first 3.5 years of this week, then what covenant was established at the beginning of Jesus' earthly ministry? Then, we must assume that Jesus' death signaled the halfway point. So, where does this "covenant" get broken off at? First we must figure out what it is?

Nay, I still feel that this is a future event as a simple reading of the text reveals.

Blessings to ya. :hug:

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings One Way,

Here is where my difficulty lies.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This passage is referring to the AC. It says that he will make a covenant with Israel for one week and then break that covenant at the halfway point. So, I don't see how this fits in with the earthly ministry of our Lord Jesus.

Well, I thought we would get around to this eventually, so let's take a look at this verse in context:

Daniel 9:26-27 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

There are several points here that I would like to make. The first has to do with the "pronoun" HE. All pronouns require a matching antecedent, that is in kind and number (for the most part). Normally the first NOUN prior to the pronoun is what is in reference, however, it must match in both of these areas, i.e. HE is referring to a male and secondly it is singular. Now ask yourself WHO it was that destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Was it Satan or another spiritual entity? No, it was the Romans. That means the first antecedent under consideration would be "the people", but it is plural so that won't do. It was NOT the "prince that shall come" and it is used as a "modifier" (like an adjective) to the word "the people". So just in looking back from our perspective, we know that the prince to come would be Satan and it was NOT Satan that walked through that city and destroyed it, but the Romans were a heathen nation fully subject to Satan.

So the next antecedent that HE could refer to would be the Messiah, for if the immediate antecedent does not match in kind and number, THEN you look at the immediate prior antecedent.

Now we know that it was Messiah that "made a NEW COVENANT" with the people:

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

But NOWHERE in the NT or even the OT is a "covenant with the Prince which was to come, that is Satan" to ever be made. Please confirm this for yourself. It would seem to me that such an important event would be mentioned again and again in the scriptures, but it is not.

Next, we see that for the overspreading of abominations the "temple" would be destroyed. Recall Jesus words:

Matthew 21:13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Then we see His edict upon Jerusalem and the Temple:

Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Now we know from the history of the OT, that God almost always used the heathen nations to bring punishment, destruction and even death to the unrepentant Israel.

In the Book of the Wars, Josephus writes, as he is looking over the devastating destruction of Jerusalem, "Surely it was God who wrought this destruction", because it was so thorough and devastating.

So it was at God's direction that he used "the people of the prince that shall come" to bring destruction against Jerusalem.

Next, in regards to the sacrifice and oblation. Once the temple curtain was torn, there was no longer any acceptable sacrifice that the Jews could offer through the priests. All sacrifices and oblations effectively ceased at the cross that found acceptance in God's sight. This was finalized in 70 A.D at the total destruction of the Temple.

Next, is the word "consummation". The "physical" temple would NEVER again be rebuilt, for it shall remain destroyed completely UNTIL THE "consummation" of God's restoration of righteousness to Israel.

Now you will notice one other correlation in this interpretation. Messiah was to come for 1 week - the 70th week, but in mid-week, He would be cut off. Correlating to that is the mid-week ceasing of sacrifice and oblation. Both were the result of the CROSS.

Now just one more thing, but I will not go into great detail on it until you at least digest the foregoing.

To counter the argument that the "physical" temple has to be rebuilt so that there is a place for the "antichrist" or the "AoD" might stand in it, this is just a bunch of nonsense. There are two Greek words interpreted as "temple" in the NT. The first "Hieron" is the physical building of the temple and all it contains, in addition to the surrounding buildings and walls, IOW, the WHOLE thing. If a temple would ever be built again, it must be "according to the pattern" given to Solomon, which means THE WHOLE THING, and not just a stone for an altar, as some might have you believe.

The second Greek word is "Naos". This is how THAT word is used in the NT:

Jesus said: "Destroy this "temple" (naos) and I will raise it up in 3 days."

The church body is referred to as the "naos".

The individual is referred to as the "naos", as in "... know ye not that your body is the "temple" of the Holy Ghost?...

And lastly the TRUE "naos" is in Heaven, that is the "true Temple of God", and in the book of Revelation, only NAOS is referred to and NEVER "hieron".

Nowhere in the NT, is the "hieron" ever said to be rebuilt.

In regards to this, the "naos" can reference either the "holy place" or the "Holy of Holies". The "holy place" is immediately BEFORE the "Holy of Holies", it is the "altar" upon we who believe worship. The Holy of Holies, is actually in Heaven and when you see those worshiping God on the "altar" before the throne, what we are actually seeing is Christians who crawl into their closet, get on their knees and pray. This is the "holy place" or altar before God, and as I said the Holy of Holies is God's throneroom.

Well, I went into more depth than I had wished, but I hope you give these things your serious consideration. Please check these things out for yourself.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[2bba]

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[Guest Called]

2bba- I don't know what went on in this thread, but offense is a tactic of the devil. Don't get offended or you are playing into his hands. God Bless!

Debbie :hug:

[One Way]

DadE, thanks for the reply again... and sorry for the belated response (I've been on vacation).

I don't find anything conclusive in your understanding. Nothing that would alter what I already believe anyways. But I do thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.

Blessings...