SPECIFIC REASONS Christ Returns Right Now.

[One Way]

DadE, I agree with what you said (I didn't see anything that I disagreed with, anyways).

Let me refine the issue a bit. Do you recognize that we are in a dispensation between the 69th and 70th week, although we are pary of neither, currently?

[Old Timer]

Greetings One Way.

I'm sure if you ask this of Old Timer he has learned by now that the church is no different than Israel.  We are all saints in the same category.  No distinction between the two.  If they could straighten out their ecclesiology, there might be some hope for them.

I'm not sure I understand exactly what is meant here but I will say this.

I believe here are three classes of people; the Church (believers), the gentiles (unbelievers) and Israel (the Jews).

The Church is certainly different than Israel and will be delt with differently.

If a Jew becomes a Christian then he is in the Church and no loger a part of Israel.

There should be no confusion between the nation of Israel and the Church. The Church has NOT replaced Israel and assumed those promises made to the nation of Israel.

[One Way]

Greetings One Way.

I'm sure if you ask this of Old Timer he has learned by now that the church is no different than Israel.

[Old Timer]

As this thread has developed into a debate on the pre-tribulation vs post or mid-tribulation rapture I am posting this link that I hope all will read.

Whether you agree with all of it or not, it has quite a bit of insight from which I think we ALL can learn.

Will post tribbers go up in the pretrib rapture?

[One Way]

As this thread has developed into a debate on the pre-tribulation vs post or mid-tribulation rapture I am posting this link that I hope all will read.

Whether you agree with all of it or not, it has quite a bit of insight from which I think we ALL can learn.

Will post tribbers go up in the pretrib rapture?

Sorry, OT. From what I saw on that article it, to me, seems to be nonsense. We are all saved by the same blood of Jesus Christ. One is not "any more saved" due to this doctrine.

When we all first got saved, did we understand the doctrine of the rapture? If not, then did we get "more saved" as we began to understand it?

I don't think one's view of the rapture has any bearing on salvation.

Our mid and post-trib brothers/sisters are just that, fellow believers. Although, I feel they have erred on this point.

Just my opinion.

[Old Timer]

I don

[Guest LCPGUY]

I don

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings One Way,

Let me refine the issue a bit. Do you recognize that we are in a dispensation between the 69th and 70th week, although we are pary of neither, currently?

I am not a dispensationalist as used in popular vernacular. There is the Old Covenant and the New Covenant which has superseded the Old. The word dispensation or "stewardship" is the Greek word:

3622 oikonomia {oy-kon-om-ee'-ah}

from 3623; TDNT - 5:151,674; n f

AV - dispensation 4, stewardship 3; 7

1) the management of a household or of household affairs

1a) specifically, the management, oversight, administration, of

other's property

1b) the office of a manager or overseer, stewardship

1c) administration, dispensation

As you can see there are 7 verses using this word. You may want to look them up and analyze them to see what is meant by them.

Anyway, the "dispensation of the administration of grace" is the same for both Jew AND gentile. As did the gentiles receive Christ LAST, that is, "He came unto His own..." and THEN sent His disciples to the gentiles, so shall the Jews (Israel) receive "salvation" LAST because they first rejected their Messiah. But God will reach out to them in a very great evangelical effort in the last days through the THEN born again Christians.

As for your initial question, the Messiah was to come at the conclusion of the 69th week, whereupon there would yet be 7 years left wherein Israel would be returned to righteousness. For 3 1/2 years the Messiah personally preached the Kingdom of God has come - TO THE JEWS. But they rejected Him and thus the "Kingdom of God" was taken from them. The administration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ left them and went to the gentiles. BUT GOD IS NOT FINISHED WITH ISRAEL. There remains 3 1/2 years of the 70th week left wherein God shall "restore ALL Israel to right standing with Him." It will be during those last 3 1/2 years that the Gospel will be accepted by them. Now take a look at these verses:

Deut 4:26-31 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed. 27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you. 28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. 29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul. 30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; 31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

There are over 16 million Jews in the world, and about 6.2 million of those are in Israel (or less?). Less than 2% of ALL Jews, both in Israel and those still in the Diaspora recognize Jesus as their Messiah. This is a "remnant" of the faithful which God has always kept of the TRUE Jew.

In addition, we see that more and more Christians are NOT listening to "sound doctrine", which means the Kingdom of God is reaching its fill of Gentiles, and the apostacy is close at hand. At that time, Christians will preach to the only ones that will be open to the Gospel at that time and that will be the Jews.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[One Way]

Greetings One Way,

As for your initial question, the Messiah was to come at the conclusion of the 69th week, whereupon there would yet be 7 years left wherein Israel would be returned to righteousness. For 3 1/2 years the Messiah personally preached the Kingdom of God has come - TO THE JEWS. But they rejected Him and thus the "Kingdom of God" was taken from them. The administration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ left them and went to the gentiles. BUT GOD IS NOT FINISHED WITH ISRAEL. There remains 3 1/2 years of the 70th week left wherein God shall "restore ALL Israel to right standing with Him." It will be during those last 3 1/2 years that the Gospel will be accepted by them. Now take a look at these verses:

Ahhhhh. That helps a bunch. Now I know where you are coming from. But, what I fear you have done is you have chopped the the 70th week in half and thrown some here and some there.

We both recognize that Christ came at the culmination of the first 69 weeks. That is where it should stop. For it says,

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

It says, "the Messiah the Prince..." That means that Christ came at the end of 69 weeks.

Please show me scripturally how Jesus' earthly ministry qualifies as being the 1st half of the 70th week of Daniel.

I don't see that and I would be interested in your idea. Thanks.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings One Way,

We both recognize that Christ came at the culmination of the first 69 weeks. That is where it should stop.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

What we see here is God's promise to Israel that 70 weeks, that is 490 years were set for Israel to be restored to a state of righteousness with God. As we understand from vs. 25, 69 weeks will pass and during that time Jerusalem will be rebuilt. This would be the Nehimiah Temple which is what was standing at Jesus 1st advent. It is interesting to note that the 1st temple, the Solomon temple, when it had been prepared and dedicated along with all the priests and everything, the Shekanah Glory of God came upon the Holy of Holies. But the Nehimiah temple was not so blessed. I suspect because the "anointing" of the "most Holy" was Jesus Christ Himself who declared that His body was the Temple.

In any case, He came unto His own and His own received Him not. For 3 1/2 years he preached to them, as did His disciples when Jesus had sent them out - to go only to the Jews. So all Israel KNEW of this man who claimed to be the "Christ", the Chosen One, the Messiah. Yet for the vast majority of them, they rejected Him. At the cross there remained only a "remnant" of the faithful. But Christ had already prepared His disciples to "go into all the world" and when Pentecost occured, this was their command. So for 3 1/2 years God attempted through Christ to "restore Israel to righteousness", but their heart was hardened.

So skip forward to Romans 9-11, we are told that once again God would reach out to Israel and this time will change their hearts to receive Christ as the Messiah and then be restored to "right standing with God"

Now I have already referred to Deut 4:26-31 where Israel would be restored to righteousness "in the latter days" and "in times of great trouble". We know these times to be the "great tribulation", and Christ has identified that as a UNIVERSAL time of GREAT TRIBULATION that will come upon the WHOLE earth. It is NOT restricted just to Israel, for these are the days of Babylon and the persecution of Christians by the Beast.

Now if you look carefully at each of the 3 1/2 year periods given in Revelation, you will see that they run "concurrently" and NOT consequitively, as some might preach. This is the time of God's final outpouring of His Holy Spirit upon both Jew and Gentile believers. We are HIS "temple" in which He shall dwell upon this earth during those years. Jesus referred to this "spirit" as the "Elijah which will come" It is the Elijah spirit that will be upon the "Two Witnesses". He was known as "the prophet of fire", and this is what we see coming from their mouths.

Well, I'd better let you digest that first. Any questions?

For it says,

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

It says, "the Messiah the Prince..." That means that Christ came at the end of 69 weeks.

Please show me scripturally how Jesus' earthly ministry qualifies as being the 1st half of the 70th week of Daniel.

There is some contention over what is called the "gap theory", mainly coming from preterists or amillinealists. You and I are considered "pre-mill", meaning that we believe the Lord will come again BEFORE His 1,000 year reign. There are many from all pre-mill camps - pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, pre-wrath, that believe there is a "gap" between the end of the 69th week and the BEGINNING of the 70th week. However, there is a few small number of us that have come to recognize that the "great tribulation" spoken of by Moses, Daniel and Jesus is ONLY 3 1/2 years in length, (which is the latter half of the 70th week) and even John in the Book of Revelation recognizes this - ONLY those who believe it is 7 years, take at least two of the mentions of 3 1/2 years and creates a timeline of 7 years. But as I have pointed out, each mention of 3 1/2 years runs "concurrently" and if you do a study of what is happening in each of those 3 1/2 year periods, you will come to the same conclusion.

So did I miss anything?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie