Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit

[enoob57]

I do believe that is what he is waiting for. It sounds like he believes we will find his threads controversial. He has even made a statement that he is to bring forth what the Lord has told him to bring, then leave. He also has made suggestions that he may even be banned, or that is how I read his post.

Oh, is that what he meant?

So here's here to post and run?

But he wants to put it in Controversial issues, so he's digging up dead threads in order to find something he can post on just to make 100 posts?

Where is the love of the brethren in that?

OR possibly post - toasties

[Guest shiloh357]

Jesus expects us to be obedient. He gave us the grace/strength to be obedient. If one is not obedient then that says he or she loves Satan. Satan

[Guest Butero]

ok, first off i think it is very important we in no way insult the Holy Spirit (or any part of the Godhead for that matter)

but this is how i personally learned about it, that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is to attribute the power of God to satan, as the pharisees did when they accused Jesus of casting out demons by satan's power.

But this by no means that this is the only way to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

I pretty much agree with this interpretation. It would be to say something blasphemous against the Holy Ghost or to speak a word against him. I have always found it interesting that if someone speaks a word against Jesus, forgiveness is available, but there is no forgivenss for anyone that speaks a word against the Holy Ghost, in this world or in the world to come. Attributing the work of the Spirit to the devil was the transgression of the religious leaders when Jesus gave the warning. Because of the seriousness of this offense, we need to be careful.

[Guest shiloh357]

A true Christian cannot commit blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. It is rooted in unbelief and thus is impossible for a believer in Christ to commit an act rooted in unbelief. The act of blasphemy properly defined means to intentionally maliciously defame the reputation of (in this case) the Holy Spirit.

The reason it cannot be forgiven is because a person who commits the sin is in a state of impenitence and for that reason it is not an act, but a habit. It is the contual determined rejection of Christ against the testimony of the Scriptures and the Spirit.

One cannot be a Christian and live in the habitual, ongoing state of unbelief required for Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit to occur.

No Christian ever has to worry about committing that sin.

Often times some ministries who engage in the supernatural seek to intimidate anyone who challenges the veracity of the miracles that occur by them by invoking the warning that anyone who challenges them is committing Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit does not include being skeptical of the alleged supernatural occurrances that are attested by some ministries.

In terms of context, the ONLY time this could have been committed was during the earthly ministry of Christ and it was Jesus they accused of being indwelt by the prince of demons and performing His miracles by the power of the same. There is no mention of this OUTSIDE of the earthly ministry of Christ. It was only unbelievers who leveled that charge and they did because they KNEW Jesus doing His works by the Holy Spirit. They knowingly blasphemed the Holy Spirit. Blasphemy is not something some does on accident or in ignorance. It is entirely intentional. They knew Jesus was from God and that His works were done by the Holy Spirit and they hated Him all the more for it.

.

[Guest Butero]

Matthew 12:31,32

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

It clearly states that if you blaspheme the Holy Ghost or speak a word against the Holy Ghost, you will not be forgiven in this world or in the world to come. If you feel comfortable with Shiloh's interpretation, and accept the notion that a believer cannot commit this sin, do so at your own peril, but I am not convinced. I am not convinced that the sin couldn't be committed by anyone except those at the time Jesus was on earth, and I am not convinced it is a continual lifestyle without repentance. That is the interpretation those who hold to the "perseverance of the saints" doctrine promote to defend their doctrine. To me, it is a huge stretch.

[Guest shiloh357]

It clearly states that if you blaspheme the Holy Ghost or speak a word against the Holy Ghost, you will not be forgiven in this world or in the world to come.

Yes but that does occurs in the context of unbelief.

If you feel comfortable with Shiloh's interpretation, and accept the notion that a believer cannot commit this sin, do so at your own peril, but I am not convinced.

All you have to demonstrate is how a Christian be a believer and an unbeliever at the same time. The only persons in the Bible to commit that sin were unbelivers becaue they rejected Christ.

For a person to commit that sin, they would have to reject Christ which would mean that they are not a Christian. There is no logical way a person can be a Christian which requires them to believe in Christ AND yet also commit a sin rooted in an attitude of unbelief. Light and darkness cannot occupy the same space at the same time.

I am not convinced that the sin couldn't be committed by anyone except those at the time Jesus was on earth, and I am not convinced it is a continual lifestyle without repentance.

The people who committed that sin were steeped in a life of continual and persistent lifeystyle of impenitent unbelief.

That is the interpretation those who hold to the "perseverance of the saints" doctrine promote to defend their doctrine. To me, it is a huge stretch.

This has nothing to do with that. I did not say a person could commit that sin and still be saved. I said that it is impossible for a person to accept and reject Christ at the same time.

To show from a biblical standpoint, that a Christian can commit that sin, one would need a variety of things:

1. Show ONE recorded event from the NT where a New Testament Christian committed that sin.

2. Show ONE recorded event from the New Testament outside the ministry of Jesus where blaphemy of the Holy Spirit occurred.

3. Show ONE mention or warning of this sin from any of the New Testament epistles to churches or in any of the general epistles. How is it discussed?

4. Demonstrate how unbelief and rejection of Christ and belief in Christ can co-exist at the same time in the heart of a Christian.

[Guest Butero]

It clearly states that if you blaspheme the Holy Ghost or speak a word against the Holy Ghost, you will not be forgiven in this world or in the world to come.

Yes but that does occurs in the context of unbelief.

If you feel comfortable with Shiloh's interpretation, and accept the notion that a believer cannot commit this sin, do so at your own peril, but I am not convinced.

All you have to demonstrate is how a Christian be a believer and an unbeliever at the same time. The only persons in the Bible to commit that sin were unbelivers becaue they rejected Christ.

For a person to commit that sin, they would have to reject Christ which would mean that they are not a Christian. There is no logical way a person can be a Christian which requires them to believe in Christ AND yet also commit a sin rooted in an attitude of unbelief. Light and darkness cannot occupy the same space at the same time.

I am not convinced that the sin couldn't be committed by anyone except those at the time Jesus was on earth, and I am not convinced it is a continual lifestyle without repentance.

The people who committed that sin were steeped in a life of continual and persistent lifeystyle of impenitent unbelief.

That is the interpretation those who hold to the "perseverance of the saints" doctrine promote to defend their doctrine. To me, it is a huge stretch.

This has nothing to do with that. I did not say a person could commit that sin and still be saved. I said that it is impossible for a person to accept and reject Christ at the same time.

To show from a biblical standpoint, that a Christian can commit that sin, one would need a variety of things:

1. Show ONE recorded event from the NT where a New Testament Christian committed that sin.

2. Show ONE recorded event from the New Testament outside the ministry of Jesus where blaphemy of the Holy Spirit occurred.

3. Show ONE mention or warning of this sin from any of the New Testament epistles to churches or in any of the general epistles. How is it discussed?

4. Demonstrate how unbelief and rejection of Christ and belief in Christ can co-exist at the same time in the heart of a Christian.

We are both starting from a differen't position, in that we don't agree on what the sin is. I believe it is attributing the work of the Spirit to the devil, or saying something blasphemous against the Spirit, which anyone could do, and you believe it is someone remaining in a state of unbelief and rejecting God. I don't have to show a recorded event where a NT Christian committed that sin to prove anything.

I seriously doubt that you can find an example of a NT Christian committing a wide variety of sins, yet they commit them. Can a Christian be guilty of not honoring their Father or Mother? I can't come up with one recorded instance in the New Testament church where that occurs, so it must not be possible using your logic? I can't think of one instance where we were told it was important to honor our Father and Mother in any of the epistles, so it must not be possible to violate that commandment, based on your reasoning?

As to your 4th question, all one would have to do to blaspheme the Holy Spirit would be to see a person being healed or delivered by the power of God, and then attribute it to the power of the devil. That was the sin the religious crowd was guilty of. You could do that even if you are a Christian. You could also potentially get mad and curse the Holy Spirit, though I have never seen anyone do that. Again, the dissagreement is based on the fact we don't see this sin as the same thing.

[Guest shiloh357]

We are both starting from a differen't position, in that we don't agree on what the sin is. I believe it is attributing the work of the Spirit to the devil, or saying something blasphemous against the Spirit, which anyone could do, and you believe it is someone remaining in a state of unbelief and rejecting God.

I am going off of the ONLY definition the Bible offers. YOU are making up your own definition and projecting it on to the text.

I don't have to show a recorded event where a NT Christian committed that sin to prove anything.

Yes you do. If you say a Christian can commit this sin, then all you have to do is show that to be biblical by presenting biblical evidence. Otherwise it is just something you made up and has no biblcial basis and thus no reason for anyone to accept or take seriously.

I seriously doubt that you can find an example of a NT Christian committing a wide variety of sins, yet they commit them. Can a Christian be guilty of not honoring their Father or Mother? I can't come up with one recorded instance in the New Testament church where that occurs, so it must not be possible using your logic?

You are comparing two different things. Those who committed the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit did so out of a determined rejection of Christ. They were already living in the state of unbelief. They had already rejected Him and they simply expressed what they already had in their heart.

The nature of the sin defies the possibility of a Christian committing it because in EVERY place it is mentioned, it is the product of unbelief. So for you to be shown as correct, you need to provide a reason or example of a Christian living in state of unbelief and yet still be "Christian" enough to commit this sin.

I can't think of one instance where we were told it was important to honor our Father and Mother in any of the epistles, so it must not be possible to violate that commandment, based on your reasoning?

Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. "Honor your father and mother" (this is the first commandment with a promise), "that it may go well with you and that you may live long in the land."

(Eph 6:1-3)

As to your 4th question, all one would have to do to blaspheme the Holy Spirit would be to see a person being healed or delivered by the power of God, and then attribute it to the power of the devil.

So why would a Christian (assuming the know it was the power of God) knowingly accuse the Holy Spirit of being a devil??? The sin of blasphemy is done knowingly. It is done with both eyes open. It is not something a person can do on accident or do in ignorance of what they are doing.

That was the sin the religious crowd was guilty of. You could do that even if you are a Christian.

Again, you have the biblical burden of proof to show how the Bible supports that (unless you have chosen to define what a Christian is or is not outside of biblical revelation).

You could also potentially get mad and curse the Holy Spirit, though I have never seen anyone do that. Again, the dissagreement is based on the fact we don't see this sin as the same thing.

the reason you have never seen a Christian do that is that a true Christian doesn't do that. I am going by exactly what the Bible offers to us. You are operating off of some other standard of truth.

[Guest Butero]

We are both starting from a differen't position, in that we don't agree on what the sin is. I believe it is attributing the work of the Spirit to the devil, or saying something blasphemous against the Spirit, which anyone could do, and you believe it is someone remaining in a state of unbelief and rejecting God.

I am going off of the ONLY definition the Bible offers. YOU are making up your own definition and projecting it on to the text.

I don't have to show a recorded event where a NT Christian committed that sin to prove anything.

Yes you do. If you say a Christian can commit this sin, then all you have to do is show that to be biblical by presenting biblical evidence. Otherwise it is just something you made up and has no biblcial basis and thus no reason for anyone to accept or take seriously.

I seriously doubt that you can find an example of a NT Christian committing a wide variety of sins, yet they commit them. Can a Christian be guilty of not honoring their Father or Mother? I can't come up with one recorded instance in the New Testament church where that occurs, so it must not be possible using your logic?

You are comparing two different things. Those who committed the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit did so out of a determined rejection of Christ. They were already living in the state of unbelief. They had already rejected Him and they simply expressed what they already had in their heart.

The nature of the sin defies the possibility of a Christian committing it because in EVERY place it is mentioned, it is the product of unbelief. So for you to be shown as correct, you need to provide a reason or example of a Christian living in state of unbelief and yet still be "Christian" enough to commit this sin.

I can't think of one instance where we were told it was important to honor our Father and Mother in any of the epistles, so it must not be possible to violate that commandment, based on your reasoning?

Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. "Honor your father and mother" (this is the first commandment with a promise), "that it may go well with you and that you may live long in the land."

(Eph 6:1-3)

As to your 4th question, all one would have to do to blaspheme the Holy Spirit would be to see a person being healed or delivered by the power of God, and then attribute it to the power of the devil.

So why would a Christian (assuming the know it was the power of God) knowingly accuse the Holy Spirit of being a devil??? The sin of blasphemy is done knowingly. It is done with both eyes open. It is not something a person can do on accident or do in ignorance of what they are doing.

That was the sin the religious crowd was guilty of. You could do that even if you are a Christian.

Again, you have the biblical burden of proof to show how the Bible supports that (unless you have chosen to define what a Christian is or is not outside of biblical revelation).

You could also potentially get mad and curse the Holy Spirit, though I have never seen anyone do that. Again, the dissagreement is based on the fact we don't see this sin as the same thing.

the reason you have never seen a Christian do that is that a true Christian doesn't do that. I am going by exactly what the Bible offers to us. You are operating off of some other standard of truth.

In the instance of honoring Father and Mother, that was just and example, and I will admit it was a poor one. I have never seen a Christian trying to conjure up the dead in the New Testament, so I suppose that is ok?

I am simply looking at the instance where someone was guilty of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and what they were doing in defining what the sin was. Jesus had cast our a devil through the power of the Spirit, and he was accused of doing so by the power of the devil. As such, if I see someone casting out a devil successfully, and I attribute it to the power of the devil, I am doing the same thing they did, or at least I am in danger of doing so. I might do this because I don't believe in the person's ministry, rather than because of unbelief in God? The religious crowd in Jesus' day believed in Jehovah, but either rejected Jesus or were trying to turn the people away from him to protect their positions. A Christian could commit this sin.

By the way, I said I haven't seen anyone curse the Holy Spirit, and I didn't just mean Christians. Most sinners that curse God curse the Father or attack Jesus. That is fortunate for them, because there is still the possibility for forgivness.

[Guest shiloh357]

In the instance of honoring Father and Mother, that was just and example, and I will admit it was a poor one. I have never seen a Christian trying to conjure up the dead in the New Testament, so I suppose that is ok?

Again, you are comparing two different things. A Christian would do not that.

I am simply looking at the instance where someone was guilty of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and what they were doing in defining what the sin was. Jesus had cast our a devil through the power of the Spirit, and he was accused of doing so by the power of the devil.

Yes, but there is more to it than that. The people who were making that accusation were already steeped in their unbelief and rejection of Jesus. Furthermore, Jesus accused them of "BLASPHEMY" which is something done to injure God's reputation in the full knowledge of the truth. The point being was that they KNEW it was the Holy Spirit operating in Jesus, and that fact made them hate Him all the more. They purposefully and knowlingly blapshemed the Holy Spirit in order to discredit Jesus. They hated Jesus BECAUSE He was the Messiah and BECAUSE He was operating by the Holy Spirit. They could not refute Him, so their only option was to demonize Him. Blasphemy is a sin that has its roots in unbelief, but it is a wilful unbelief. They fully understood what they were doing. Their act of blasphemy was not a one-time event. It was the product of continual, ongoing rejection of Christ. Blashpemy of the Holy Spirit was only ONE manifestation of that.

As such, if I see someone casting out a devil successfully, and I attribute it to the power of the devil, I am doing the same thing they did, or at least I am in danger of doing so. I might do this because I don't believe in the person's ministry, rather than because of unbelief in God? The religious crowd in Jesus' day believed in Jehovah, but either rejected Jesus or were trying to turn the people away from him to protect their positions. A Christian could commit this sin.

That is the common, modern "Pentacostal" misunderstanding of this sin.

If blasphemy of the Holy Spirit were so important to Christians, Paul and the other apostles should have discussed it in their epistles, as many of the gospels were written years after the epistles. if they were worried about Christians committing that sin, they would have made sure to discuss it and warn people against it. They did not have the gospels to refer to until late their ministries and could not take for granted that every Christian in their day would have had a copy of any of the gospels, much less assume that they would have had paid special attention to the chapters on blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. The absence of any mention of this sin demonstrates that a Christian is never danger of committing that sin.