Guest shiloh357 Posted December 23, 2010 Share Posted December 23, 2010 Now I thought this statement would be challenged bro....but as it hasn't, I guess I had better throw in my 2cts Surely the Holy Spirit can be sinned against today in the same way that some Jewish people were evidently doing when attributing the works of G-d to the power of devils and calling the L-rd's ministry into question. For example, say a person is preaching in Africa, and G-d is backing up the ministry with powerful signs and wonders...then some witch-doctor comes and curses the work, and tells the people the man is a devil, and is ministering falsehood in the name of Satan, and the power of Satan? We are told that the emphasis of the Blasphemy is on what is attributed to the Holy Spirit...all other sins even those against the Son of Man will all be forgiven...but it is this sin against the Holy Spirit that will not be forgiven....and therefore as He is active in the world today, surely it is still a distinct possibility? I did not say that one could not sin agaisnt the Holy Spirit, as Blasphemy is only one type of sin that one could conceivably commit against Him. The Pharisees knew Jesus was the Messiah and they knew He was operating by the power of the Holy Spirit and they hated Him all the more for it. Blasphemy is done for the express purpose of injuring God's reputation. Even though they were the religious leaders, the true blackneess of their heart was revealed in that they were willing to stand against Jesus at any cost even to the point of knowlingly and willilng blaspheming God if that is what it takes. Blasphemy is never done on accident, so it was the result of a determined unbelief in and rejection of the witness of the Holy Spirit. I doubt a witch-doctor would have the same motives as the religious leadership of Israel for rejecting the work of the Holy Spirit. Pagans tend to object and attempt to discredit or defame the work of God because it effects their livelihood in some cases. If you were the only witch-doctor in the area and were making a handy profit from it, and some preacher comes around and starts horning in on your terrirtory and healing more people than you do and is doing it for free to boot, you would probably do all you could to get rid of him. The ONLY context we have in Scripture for this sin is the earthly ministry of Jesus. I am open to being wrong about the possibility of it occuring outside of that context, but I guess my biggest point is that even if it could be committed today, it cannot be committed by Christians because it is rooted in unbelief in and a rejection of Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted December 23, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted December 23, 2010 The ONLY context we have in Scripture for this sin is the earthly ministry of Jesus. I am open to being wrong about the possibility of it occurring outside of that context, but I guess my biggest point is that even if it could be committed today, it cannot be committed by Christians because it is rooted in unbelief in and a rejection of Christ. Agreed, it cannot be committed by a saved believer, but a saved believer can commit the sin of unbelief, which is a different thing entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 23, 2010 Share Posted December 23, 2010 The ONLY context we have in Scripture for this sin is the earthly ministry of Jesus. I am open to being wrong about the possibility of it occurring outside of that context, but I guess my biggest point is that even if it could be committed today, it cannot be committed by Christians because it is rooted in unbelief in and a rejection of Christ. Agreed, it cannot be committed by a saved believer, but a saved believer can commit the sin of unbelief, which is a different thing entirely. Very true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted December 23, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted December 23, 2010 The ONLY context we have in Scripture for this sin is the earthly ministry of Jesus. I am open to being wrong about the possibility of it occurring outside of that context, but I guess my biggest point is that even if it could be committed today, it cannot be committed by Christians because it is rooted in unbelief in and a rejection of Christ. Agreed, it cannot be committed by a saved believer, but a saved believer can commit the sin of unbelief, which is a different thing entirely. Very true. Agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted December 23, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted December 23, 2010 The ONLY context we have in Scripture for this sin is the earthly ministry of Jesus. I am open to being wrong about the possibility of it occurring outside of that context, but I guess my biggest point is that even if it could be committed today, it cannot be committed by Christians because it is rooted in unbelief in and a rejection of Christ. Agreed, it cannot be committed by a saved believer, but a saved believer can commit the sin of unbelief, which is a different thing entirely. Very true. Agreed Erich and shiloh357, are you guys aware of the grace message being preached out of Bethal church by Bill Johnston, or the book by one of his pastors (forget the name), "Culture of honor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botz Posted December 24, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,492 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 191 Days Won: 18 Joined: 03/29/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 24, 2010 The ONLY context we have in Scripture for this sin is the earthly ministry of Jesus. I am open to being wrong about the possibility of it occuring outside of that context, but I guess my biggest point is that even if it could be committed today, it cannot be committed by Christians because it is rooted in unbelief in and a rejection of Christ. Thanks for the clarification. I am not sure that what you have written in the passage above is entirely true, because I have seen those that believe in Jesus and preach Jesus, but have not only denied the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but also attributed the anointing and manifestations of His presence to devils because it does not fit in with their theology and experience. I can see that this is somewhat different from the deliberate denial that some of the Jewish leaders pursued...but the emphasis is specifically on the Holy Spirit...maybe it's a work of the flesh, when those that know G-d the Father, and are saved by G-d the Son, cannot see G-d the Holy Spirit, and deny Him....again it seems the antithesis of Jesus' example of a house being divided against itself...this time the house of faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 24, 2010 Share Posted December 24, 2010 I am not sure that what you have written in the passage above is entirely true, because I have seen those that believe in Jesus and preach Jesus, but have not only denied the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but also attributed the anointing and manifestations of His presence to devils because it does not fit in with their theology and experience. Well I am going off of the ONLY available context that Scripture offers. We bound by that limitation in our interpretation. There is a difference between challenging what may see as false ministries purporting to operate under the power of God and the actions of the Pharisees. The Pharisees KNEW that Jesus was operating under the power of the Holy Spirit. That is why what they said was blasphemy. Blasphemy is a conscious attempt at injuring God's reputation. It is a form of slander. You cannot compare that with justifed skepticism about healing and deliverance ministries due to the numerous charlatains who have operated under the auspices of Christ and claim to cast out demons, raise people from the dead and heal sicknesses only to be discovered to be frauds. I can see that this is somewhat different from the deliberate denial that some of the Jewish leaders pursued...but the emphasis is specifically on the Holy Spirit...maybe it's a work of the flesh, when those that know G-d the Father, and are saved by G-d the Son, cannot see G-d the Holy Spirit, and deny Him....again it seems the antithesis of Jesus' example of a house being divided against itself...this time the house of faith. Then again, they might be the vehicles the Holy Spirit uses to expose fraudulent ministries. God is not afraid of being challenged, questioned or tested. His shoulders are broad enough to handle our skepticism at some of the supernatural things that He does. Better to test the spirits and not be led astray, than to accept what comes down the pike because some false teacher has everyone cowed in a corner afraid that they will go to hell for daring to have the temerity to challenge false teachings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 24, 2010 Share Posted December 24, 2010 The ONLY context we have in Scripture for this sin is the earthly ministry of Jesus. I am open to being wrong about the possibility of it occurring outside of that context, but I guess my biggest point is that even if it could be committed today, it cannot be committed by Christians because it is rooted in unbelief in and a rejection of Christ. Agreed, it cannot be committed by a saved believer, but a saved believer can commit the sin of unbelief, which is a different thing entirely. Very true. Agreed Erich and shiloh357, are you guys aware of the grace message being preached out of Bethal church by Bill Johnston, or the book by one of his pastors (forget the name), "Culture of honor?" I am not familiar with any of that. Can you elaborate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted December 24, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted December 24, 2010 The ONLY context we have in Scripture for this sin is the earthly ministry of Jesus. I am open to being wrong about the possibility of it occurring outside of that context, but I guess my biggest point is that even if it could be committed today, it cannot be committed by Christians because it is rooted in unbelief in and a rejection of Christ. Agreed, it cannot be committed by a saved believer, but a saved believer can commit the sin of unbelief, which is a different thing entirely. Very true. Agreed Erich and shiloh357, are you guys aware of the grace message being preached out of Bethal church by Bill Johnston, or the book by one of his pastors (forget the name), "Culture of honor?" I am not familiar with any of that. Can you elaborate? Basically they are preaching grace. The center of their preaching is that sin has been forgiven on the Cross, and as such the only sin a believer can not be forgiven is that of unbelief. Unbelief for instance that we can lay hands and heal, cast out demons, pick up serpents, drink poison, preform signs and wonders (all in His name of course), etc. So in a way they are saying we live under unconditional grace, in which all our sins are forgiven, and because of that God has to a degree "taken His hands off" the world. People die because people die, accidents happen because accidents happen. God does not test us in any way to strengthen our faith, or correct us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 24, 2010 Share Posted December 24, 2010 Grace IS unconditional and wholly free, but that does not mean that God does not test us, and it certainly does not mean that God has taken His hands off of the world. God is intimately involved with every sphere of existence in this world, according to Scripture. He keeps and sustains it. Nothing happens that He is not aware of it. A corrrect understanding of grace should spur us on to holy living. There is a difference in not believing in the modern operation of supernatural gifts (known as cessationism) and genuine unbelief. Unbelief in Scripture is tied primarily to the claims of Christ and our acceptance or rejection of His claims. A person who rejects Christ is in a state of unbelief. Skepticism by the modern Christian of modern supernatural events is not "unbelief" as the Bible uses that term. Unbelief cannot be forgiven due to the fact that a person in unbelief is unable to repent or seek forgiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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