Rapture References

[e lansing]

M't:24:29: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

M't:24:30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

M't:24:31: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

M'r:13:24: But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

M'r:13:25: And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

M'r:13:26: And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

M'r:13:27: And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

1Th:4:15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th:4:16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th:4:17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Co:15:51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Co:15:52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Co:15:53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Did you post all these because the word rapture is not used in scripture?

[OneLight]

May I ask what the difference between "rapture" and "caught up" is beside the fact that rapture was not a word in the time of the writing of scripture and is the title that has been given to an event?

[e lansing]

I know that when Jesus returns that He will snatch His people upwards and that they are goingl meet Him in the air. I know that's true because the Bible makes it plain.

Right!

[e lansing]

I don't believe there will be any pre tribulation rapture. And I posted those particular scriptures to support my position. There isn't any evidence of a rapture that will take place before the tribulation period. That's a doctrine that's taught by satan himself.

Heres an honest question, why do you think pre is taught by satan?

[Bold Believer]

1. Jesus clearly states that the resurrection will be on the LAST DAY. Not before. If you or anyone else wants to argue with the Creator of the Universe, be my guest.

2. In John 17, Jesus again clearly states that he does NOT want his own taken out of the earth.

These two Scripture witnesses alone mitigate against the pre-tribulation position.

History does as well. The tribulation was 70AD and the destruction of the old order.

After the tribulation of THOSE DAYS, the angels (remember, angels can mean heavenly OR earthly messengers) DID IN FACT go out and bring the elect of God in from the four corners of the earth, and we are still doing so. It's called evangelization. Evangelization on the grand scale did not begin until after the diaspora. Satan was bound to prevent the deception of the nations, which allowed the Church to go forth.

Rapturism as taught in the Church today is newspaper theology, not Biblical theology. Every time someone passes gas in the Middle East, the identity of the "antichrist" changes and some newspaper theologian writes a new tome on what's going to happen next. Were it not so sad, it would be comical.

The 'rapture' is part and parcel of the Second Coming, it is the changing of live saints' bodies from mortal to immortal; it occurs immediately on the heels of the resurrection of the predeceased saints. Since those predeceased saints are raised on the Last Day, per Jesus, it is logical to believe the rapture of living saints will occur on the Last Day as well.

[e lansing]

After the tribulation of THOSE DAYS, the angels (remember, angels can mean heavenly OR earthly messengers) DID IN FACT go out and bring the elect of God in from the four corners of the earth, and we are still doing so. It's called evangelization. Evangelization on the grand scale did not begin until after the diaspora. Satan was bound to prevent the deception of the nations, which allowed the Church to go forth.

BB, hard to argue with what you wrote, I see alot of what you see, however, this little tid bit needs some scripture support. Just like to know how you draw these conclusions?

[OneLight]

After the tribulation of THOSE DAYS, the angels (remember, angels can mean heavenly OR earthly messengers) DID IN FACT go out and bring the elect of God in from the four corners of the earth, and we are still doing so. It's called evangelization. Evangelization on the grand scale did not begin until after the diaspora. Satan was bound to prevent the deception of the nations, which allowed the Church to go forth.

BB, hard to argue with what you wrote, I see alot of what you see, however, this little tid bit needs some scripture support. Just like to know how you draw these conclusions?

I disagree that it is hard to argue with what BB wrote. Let's look at what scripture tells us. Satan will not be bound until after Christ returns and binds him for 1000 years in the bottomless pit. Revelation is very clear on the unfolding of these events.

Revelation 19:11-21 (New King James Version)

Christ on a White Horse

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

The Beast and His Armies Defeated

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven,

[Bold Believer]

Well, I draw that conclusion on the words of Jesus, coupled with history.

Mt 23:36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Jesus continues in Mt 24 talking about the things which would occur just before the end of the age, and He continually uses language indicating that He is talking to the people to which the things He speaks of would see. After all, common sense says 'Why would Christ tell these people these things if they were not going to be there to see them?' Why bother to explain to first century people something that (if the futurists are correct) would occur thousands of years in the future; and furthermore, why explain those things to them using first person indicative language (i.e.: "You"). I could understand a futurist conclusion if Jesus used 'they' or other language indicating that HE meant persons other than those to whom He was speaking.

Then, history is also plain. There were wars and rumors of wars, civil war nearly tore the Empire apart. At one time, there were 3 or 4 men each with huge armies, vying for the throne of the Emperor.

There were numerous warnings of large scale destruction in the Old Testament as well, most glaring of which is Deuteronomy chapters 28 through 32, the destructions of which parallel the account of Josephus the Jewish Roman historian.

The book of Revelation is partly a historical account of the destruction of Jerusalem and the apostate Messiah-rejecting portion of the Jewish people. It speaks of how the apostates helped Rome persecute the people of God (the Messiah loving Jews, the Church) in Ch 13, calling the priestly order 'the beast from the land' which had horns like a Lamb, but spoke like a dragon, and had the authority to call down fire in the sight of men. Paul was even a part of those who persecuted the people of God, wreaking havoc upon the Church with Roman authority behind him!.

Luke 19:43 parallels Mt 24 in referring to the siege of Jerusalem even to the part about the trench and being kept in on every side. Furthermore, Luke 21:6 parallels Mt 24 as well, and when Jesus gets to the part about the desolation in Luke, he states that when Jerusalem is surrounded with armies, its desolation was near. What desolation? The desolation which he told the Pharisees about in Mt 23. Your House is left to you desolate: Your house...The Temple. And the abomination of desolation? The Roman armies, which stood in the Temple of God and pulled it down, leaving not one stone upon another and stealing the gold from between the stones. All historical fact.

Was anyone raptured? No. Were the Believers preserved out of the tribulation? Yes. Just as Jesus told John in Revelation to tell the faithful Church of Philadelphia. "I will preserve you out of the hour of tribulation which will come upon the whole occupied earth." The people of God who were true and faithful were preserved while the others went through the trouble. The Believers were kept at Pella, a city high in the mountains, prompting the metaphor in Revelation 12 of the Church having the wings of the great eagle (indicative of Pella's height and position being like an eagle's nest.)

Pre-tribulationists most often fail to connect the words of Peter to those of Paul. While Paul speaks of the day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night, so does Peter in 2 Peter 3, but look at what else Peter says!

Paul says: 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Peter says: 2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

It looks to me like Peter and Paul agree and that Peter describes the Day of the Lord as the day when the earth would be burned up. Peter also agrees with Revelation 20:9, the last portion of the verse: "...and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." The very next verse in Rev 20 has Satan being cast into the Lake of Fire. SO then, all of these events occur on the LAST DAY. Just like Jesus said. No early escape for the Church. No seven years (or three and a half) of rule by some non-existent antichrist dictator who tattoos his subjects with 666. No one 'left behind'.

Don't get your eschatology from comic books and movies. GET IT FROM SCRIPTURE!

[e lansing]

Well, I draw that conclusion on the words of Jesus, coupled with history.

Mt 23:36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Jesus continues in Mt 24 talking about the things which would occur just before the end of the age, and He continually uses language indicating that He is talking to the people to which the things He speaks of would see. After all, common sense says 'Why would Christ tell these people these things if they were not going to be there to see them?' Why bother to explain to first century people something that (if the futurists are correct) would occur thousands of years in the future; and furthermore, why explain those things to them using first person indicative language (i.e.: "You"). I could understand a futurist conclusion if Jesus used 'they' or other language indicating that HE meant persons other than those to whom He was speaking.

Then, history is also plain. There were wars and rumors of wars, civil war nearly tore the Empire apart. At one time, there were 3 or 4 men each with huge armies, vying for the throne of the Emperor.

There were numerous warnings of large scale destruction in the Old Testament as well, most glaring of which is Deuteronomy chapters 28 through 32, the destructions of which parallel the account of Josephus the Jewish Roman historian.

The book of Revelation is partly a historical account of the destruction of Jerusalem and the apostate Messiah-rejecting portion of the Jewish people. It speaks of how the apostates helped Rome persecute the people of God (the Messiah loving Jews, the Church) in Ch 13, calling the priestly order 'the beast from the land' which had horns like a Lamb, but spoke like a dragon, and had the authority to call down fire in the sight of men. Paul was even a part of those who persecuted the people of God, wreaking havoc upon the Church with Roman authority behind him!.

Luke 19:43 parallels Mt 24 in referring to the siege of Jerusalem even to the part about the trench and being kept in on every side. Furthermore, Luke 21:6 parallels Mt 24 as well, and when Jesus gets to the part about the desolation in Luke, he states that when Jerusalem is surrounded with armies, its desolation was near. What desolation? The desolation which he told the Pharisees about in Mt 23. Your House is left to you desolate: Your house...The Temple. And the abomination of desolation? The Roman armies, which stood in the Temple of God and pulled it down, leaving not one stone upon another and stealing the gold from between the stones. All historical fact.

Was anyone raptured? No. Were the Believers preserved out of the tribulation? Yes. Just as Jesus told John in Revelation to tell the faithful Church of Philadelphia. "I will preserve you out of the hour of tribulation which will come upon the whole occupied earth." The people of God who were true and faithful were preserved while the others went through the trouble. The Believers were kept at Pella, a city high in the mountains, prompting the metaphor in Revelation 12 of the Church having the wings of the great eagle (indicative of Pella's height and position being like an eagle's nest.)

Pre-tribulationists most often fail to connect the words of Peter to those of Paul. While Paul speaks of the day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night, so does Peter in 2 Peter 3, but look at what else Peter says!

Paul says: 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Peter says: 2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

It looks to me like Peter and Paul agree and that Peter describes the Day of the Lord as the day when the earth would be burned up. Peter also agrees with Revelation 20:9, the last portion of the verse: "...and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." The very next verse in Rev 20 has Satan being cast into the Lake of Fire. SO then, all of these events occur on the LAST DAY. Just like Jesus said. No early escape for the Church. No seven years (or three and a half) of rule by some non-existent antichrist dictator who tattoos his subjects with 666. No one 'left behind'.

Don't get your eschatology from comic books and movies. GET IT FROM SCRIPTURE!

Not getting my eschatology from movies or books, why would you think that? Do you not believe that there is and will be a person who will be the Anti-Christ? I dhould have been more specific with what i needed clarified. You said that satan was bound so the church could go and draw in all of Gods people from the four conners of the earth. I do not see this. Onelight lays it out with scripture in context quite well. Again, how did you draw your conclusions? Also, do you not believe that a new temple will be built?

[OneLight]

Well, I draw that conclusion on the words of Jesus, coupled with history.

Mt 23:36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

You forgot to inform your readers that what will come upon that generation is what was previously stated in Matthew 23, which had nothing to do with the tribulation, but the religious leaders of that day. How sad it is that you use this to try and convince what you are going to present is what this scripture meant. The beginning of Matthew 24 states "Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple.", completely separating the previous chapter with what He was goign to teach.

Jesus continues in Mt 24 talking about the things which would occur just before the end of the age, and He continually uses language indicating that He is talking to the people to which the things He speaks of would see. After all, common sense says 'Why would Christ tell these people these things if they were not going to be there to see them?' Why bother to explain to first century people something that (if the futurists are correct) would occur thousands of years in the future; and furthermore, why explain those things to them using first person indicative language (i.e.: "You"). I could understand a futurist conclusion if Jesus used 'they' or other language indicating that HE meant persons other than those to whom He was speaking.

It is very simple if you step our of your own understanding and trust in the Lord. He speaks to all who will read. If He was talking only to those f that time, then when did this happen?

Matthew 24:29-31

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. "

If you are an honest person, you will admit that it has not happened, throwing your argument out the window.

You continue to try and use logic as your means of understanding, but in all truth, your logic is faulty.

Then, history is also plain. There were wars and rumors of wars, civil war nearly tore the Empire apart. At one time, there were 3 or 4 men each with huge armies, vying for the throne of the Emperor.

There were numerous warnings of large scale destruction in the Old Testament as well, most glaring of which is Deuteronomy chapters 28 through 32, the destructions of which parallel the account of Josephus the Jewish Roman historian.

Yes, there were , but nothing on the scale as what we are seeing today. That is why Jesus was talking an future tense, not past tense, as you are trying to assign to His words.

The book of Revelation is partly a historical account of the destruction of Jerusalem and the apostate Messiah-rejecting portion of the Jewish people. It speaks of how the apostates helped Rome persecute the people of God (the Messiah loving Jews, the Church) in Ch 13, calling the priestly order 'the beast from the land' which had horns like a Lamb, but spoke like a dragon, and had the authority to call down fire in the sight of men. Paul was even a part of those who persecuted the people of God, wreaking havoc upon the Church with Roman authority behind him!.

This is just your interpretation of the meaning in Revelation. This has not happened yet.

Luke 19:43 parallels Mt 24 in referring to the siege of Jerusalem even to the part about the trench and being kept in on every side. Furthermore, Luke 21:6 parallels Mt 24 as well, and when Jesus gets to the part about the desolation in Luke, he states that when Jerusalem is surrounded with armies, its desolation was near. What desolation? The desolation which he told the Pharisees about in Mt 23. Your House is left to you desolate: Your house...The Temple. And the abomination of desolation? The Roman armies, which stood in the Temple of God and pulled it down, leaving not one stone upon another and stealing the gold from between the stones. All historical fact.

It is not what is going to happen, no matter how you try to paste it together. When Rome destroyed the temple, the Abomination of Desolation did not occur where the son of perdition sat in the seat of God and claim that he was God. There is so muuch one has to disregard in order to believe in what you are saying. That is the trouble with those who believe that the tribulation was when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans.

Was anyone raptured? No. Were the Believers preserved out of the tribulation? Yes. Just as Jesus told John in Revelation to tell the faithful Church of Philadelphia. "I will preserve you out of the hour of tribulation which will come upon the whole occupied earth." The people of God who were true and faithful were preserved while the others went through the trouble. The Believers were kept at Pella, a city high in the mountains, prompting the metaphor in Revelation 12 of the Church having the wings of the great eagle (indicative of Pella's height and position being like an eagle's nest.)

The reason why nobody was not "caught up" or ruptured is because He was not talking about that time, period. Your reasoning is very faulty.

Pre-tribulationists most often fail to connect the words of Peter to those of Paul. While Paul speaks of the day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night, so does Peter in 2 Peter 3, but look at what else Peter says!

Paul says: 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Peter says: 2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

It looks to me like Peter and Paul agree and that Peter describes the Day of the Lord as the day when the earth would be burned up. Peter also agrees with Revelation 20:9, the last portion of the verse: "...and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." The very next verse in Rev 20 has Satan being cast into the Lake of Fire. SO then, all of these events occur on the LAST DAY. Just like Jesus said. No early escape for the Church. No seven years (or three and a half) of rule by some non-existent antichrist dictator who tattoos his subjects with 666. No one 'left behind'.

I am not a pre-tribulation believer, so you will understand this up front.

The reference to "a thief in the night" means that we do not know when it will happen, not that the two are the same or that they agree it to be the same. You are trying to tie together two different events with faulty reasoning, using a term that points to no body knows when it will happen.

Their will be the coming of the Lord at the end of a future tribulation period, then the binding of Satan for 1000 years when he is cast into the bottomless pit, then the loosing of Satan for an unstated period of time to gather another army God and Magog, then the last battle Satan will ever have, then Satan being cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, then the Great White Throne Judgment, then the New Jerusalem comes to the New Earth from the New Heaven. It is clearly set in Revelation 19 through 21 where it does not need a brain surgeon to search all through scripture to try and put all these pieces together, as you do.

Don't get your eschatology from comic books and movies. GET IT FROM SCRIPTURE!

And here I was under the impression that you were discussing this like and adult without any childish finger pointing and tongue wagging .... how stupid of me to think that would happen.