Rapture References

[Bold Believer]

I am not the only Believer who doesn't buy into pre-millennialism and its cousin, pre-tribulationism. If I had to choose any other eschatological position, it would have to be historic post-millennialism, but the HPM folks never address Gog and Magog, which frankly is one of the KEY issues is the eschaton. Christ will not come until the Gog-Magog rebellion reaches its height.

What we see now is only the tip of the iceberg so to speak. The humanists (Magogists) are rising to power. Their plan is being implemented in the world. Globalism, greenism, anti-religionism are all part of Satan's Magog battle plan. It will get worse, not only for Christians, but for all religions. Satan will brook no competition; his man-god MUST reign supreme, not a singular man-god, but all men becoming gods, as his original lie bespoke.

Pre-tribulationism confuses 70AD with some alleged future tribulation period which simply is not going to happen. The tribulation of 70AD was the days of vengeance; God's vengeance on the apostate portion of Israel which rejected the true Messiah, worshiping Rome (through the Emperors) and hanging on a corrupt and inefficacious sacrificial system. God gave apostate Israel double for her sins, just as He said He would. He took the Kingdom from apostate Israel and gave it to what Jesus called a people producing the fruit of it...Believers, whether Jew OR Gentile.

Daniel speaks of the great stone which smashed the fourth beast and then grew into a great mountain: The Church. The great mountain filled the whole earth with the knowledge of the LORD, fulfilling Isaiah's prophecy. The Church did, and is still doing so. You would be hard pressed to find a country on earth where Jesus Christ has not been heard of. There may well be a few backwaters, but I believe Romans 2 covers them.

The prophecies of tribulation for Israel have been fulfilled. She is now coming back to prominence. her enemies certainly hate to see it, but it is so. She's a nation again. She has respect, however begrudging, amongst the nations. She is still in unbelief for the most part. She requires grafting back into the original olive tree. How this will come about is up to God, but only 144,000 (the full number) will be regrafted as I understand the prophecy. Not every ethnic Jew will receive salvation, just as every Gentile will not. When we see numbers like 144,000 in Revelation, they are indicative of something greater. 12 x 1000 x 12 I believe refers to fullness and perfection; the exact perfect number of something. Literally, there might 80 trillion Jews over time who receive Jesus as Messiah, but spiritually, they are 144,000, the perfect number from each perfect tribe in God's sight.

Pre-milleniallism and its relatives OVER-LITERALIZE Revelation to the point of comic absurdity and often ignore history in the process and that's one reason why I have a problem with the teaching. Another is the way pre-trib teachers rearrange time to suit their teaching, or conveniently use the ruse of double fulfillment of prophecy to make their teaching make 'sense'. IF any teaching is a collage, it would pre-tribulationism. The biggest problem I have with pre-tribulationism is the false hope it gives, both to Believers (thinking that they will escape trouble here on earth) and unbelievers (who in pre-tribulationism get a second chance after the alleged rapture). Peter's teaching in 2 Peter 3 just blows that theory all to pieces. NO ONE SURVIVES THE PAROUSIA.

Again: the Day will declare it. When the earth explodes in flaming fire and gets burned to a crisp at the Parousia (just like Peter says), you will see.

[OneLight]

It seems like you are trying to intellectualize prophecy through historical facts and not see prophesy for what it is, trying to debunk the beliefs that many hold about the future events that will happen. I have been trying to see what you are pointing to, but there is too much that you do not address about prophecy for me to ever accept what you say. Allow me to ask you how the following fits into your belief system BB.

1. If Satan has been bound for 1000 years, starting around 70 AD, how is it that he was still active in the world? (History)
   
2. When Satan was to be bound, Christ was to rule for 1000 years. How did this happen and why didn't anyone see this? (Rev 20)
   
3. When did the sun darkened, the moon not give its light; the stars fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shaken? (Matt 24)
   
4. Who was the false prophet and the beast that, according to Rev 19, were cast into the lake of fire?
   
5. Who was the "son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."? (2 Thessalonians 2:4)
   
6. What were the workings of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, that happened when the coming of the lawless one was fulfilled? (2 Thessalonians 2:9)
   
7. Who were the armies of the world from Revelation 19:19-21?
   
8. How do you read "And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh."? (Revelation 19:21)
   
9. In the above verse, what is meant by the birds being filled with their flesh?
   
10. When Christ said "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be." (Matthew 24:21), do you see this as being the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls of Revelation?
    
11. If you do not, do you believe that the Great Tribulation you say has already happened to be worst then what is revealed in the wrath of God in Revelation?
    
12. Where does the Two Witnesses from Revelation 11 fit into your theory?
    
13. When did the world see "the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."? (Matthew 24:30)
    

I have many more questions, but let's start with these first.