Godhead

[EricH]

Lets keep this oof of personal comments about each other and debate the issues. Thanks saints

[HAZARD]

Here is a simple question for you HAZARD, if God can be every where at once then why can't he be in heaven and every where at the same time. I don't know but this does not seem to difficult to really understand. God is all knowing and is every were from beginning of time to end of time.

Your right God did come out and repent the creation of man because of the wickedness in man and was going to wipe out mankind, but then instead he choose to show mercy as well, which mirror what he would do through Christ. What it shows is a the greatness of God but also his consistence if you ask me. which just validates the bible and makes it more the word of God because it's consistent with the nature of God, he doesn't change.

Sorry I don't have scriptures down by heart, which is why I'm not using them.

Hi 'mikerunk'

"Here is a simple question for you HAZARD, if God can be every where at once then why can't he be in heaven and every where at the same time."

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God is not like that. His presence can be felt by believers everywhere but He is not personally, bodily, everywhere at the same time as many Scriptures plainly show. This is not my interpretation as some suggest. This is what the Scriptures teach and I will quote them.

The question of the omniscience of God is much misunderstood. The Bible makes many simple statements that shows God gets to know things concerning the free moral actions of men as others do. There would be no meaning to these Scriptures if we do not believe what they say. There was no object in God saying such things about Himself if they were untrue. God finds out things as others do; (Gen. 6:5-7; 11:5-7; 18:21; 2 Chron 16:9; Zech 4:10; Job 12:22; 24:23; Ps. 7:9; 44:21; Ps. 139:1-6; Prov. 24:12; jer. 17:10; Ezek 11:5; Rom. 8:27; 1 Thess. 2:4).

God sends messengers throughout the Earth who report to Him of all that they find in the Earth that goes on (Dan. 10:13-21; 11:1; 12:1 Zeck. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 2:4). God does not take care of every minute detail of His vast business in all the kingdoms of the universe. His agents help Him and they are found in every part of the universe on missions for God. Certain angels are responsible for carrying out God's will in almost infinate detail concerning the billions of suns, moons, planets and all free moral agents on them. God does not personally do everything.

God Himself said of certain events that they did not come into His mind,

"They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:" (Jer. 19:5).

"And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin." (Jer. 32:35).

"The incense that ye burned in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, ye, and your fathers, your kings, and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the LORD remember them, and came it not into his mind?" (Jer. 44:21).

God sends messengers throughout His vast endless creations to find out for Him what He wants to know, so that planes may be made and actions taken accordingly. Examples of such agency constantly reporting to God can be found in (Gen. 18:21-22; Dan. 10:13-21; 11:1; 12:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 1:14; 2:2; Rev. 1:1; 7:1-3; 8:2-13; 9:1; 14:6:20; 15:1-8; 16"1-21; 22:6, 8-9, 16).

The 6,468 commands in the Bible regulating man as to his part in the eternal plan of God, and setting forth hisresponsibility to God and man, the 1,260 promises, curses, blessings, rewards or loss of rewards, the hundreds of warnings, curses, blessings and dealings of God on the basis of conformity to His will, the 1,522 "ifs" and the many hundreds of conditional requirements of God throughout Scripture are sufficient proof that God does not cause all acts and events by His own decrees, and sufficient proof that He changes His own dealings with men, as they conform or refuse to conform to His will. These Scriptural facts and many others make it clear that God does not immediately know untill told by His agents whom He sends, from all eternity what any one man will do, much less what different types and dispositions of men will do under various circumstances that are not yet present to deal with.

God's eternal plan for man is known by Him from beginning to end and what He plans to bring about and pass on Earth He has power to do, but concernign the free actions of free moral agents He does not know from all eternity what they will do before they are in existence and are here to have a part in His plan. God's plan is for all men to be saved alike and all who conform to His plan are blessed with the predestined blessings. Those who willfully rebel will be cursed with the predestined punishments according to His plan. It is His plan which is known from beginning to end, not the individual conformity to it by free moral agents. God leaves it up to each person to choose his own destiny. God wills that all men be saved but if man does not choose to be saved that is his own responsibility (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; John 3:16; Rev. 22:17).

[HAZARD]

R.G asked,

"north from where?

Ps 75:6 For not from the east, nor from the west,

Nor from the desert comes exaltation;"

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The verse I quoted is here. I will quote the verse before and the verse after. I own six versions of the Bible. Five out of the six state;

"Lift not up your horn on high: speak not with a stiff neck. For promotion cometh neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south. But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another." (Psalms 75:5-7).

The NIV is the only one that states;

(v.6) "No one from the east or the west of from the desert can exalt a man. (v7) But is is God who judges: He brings onedown and exalts another."

I will run with what the 5 say and leave the NIV version alone thanks.

If promotion from God comes neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south, then the only place left is NORTH. Even Satan knew where Heaven was in the universe when He tried to invade Heaven and it was said; "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, IN THE SIDES OF THE NORTH:" (Isa. 14:13).

Get any atlas of the known universe and one can easily find the northern Clusters and Nebulae. There are many in the Northern part of the universe, for example. Praesepe. photographed by H.R Hatfield at his observatory, Sevenoaks, Kent, (exposure 15 minutes) Praesepe, M44 (Ra. 8hr. 37m. 4decl. +20"00') is 525 light years away. Its age is estimated at about 400 millions years.

Finding Praesepeis relatively easy. It lies in the northern sky, midway between Pollux and regulus. Close to it are Delta Cancri (magnitude 4.2) and Gamma Cancri (4.7). Cancer is an obscure constellation shaped rather like Orion. Praesepe is easily visible with the naked eye, but strong moonlight will conceal it. Now if we could go out further than we know now, who knows?

Haz.

[HAZARD]

Runningator's reply to me offering him a question;

"Ahhh, please."

.

Heres my question for you. I will be surprised I you can come up with the right answer by your self. Good luck!

"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit" (John 3:8).

What does this Scripture teach?

Haz.

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

This verse is referring to the work and the effect of the Holy Spirit. The word used for the wind in the beginning of the verse is the same word used for the Sprit at the end. The wind and the Spirit go where they want to go and are not subject to our will or commands.

Other than that, this one verse does not teach much else, as is the case with single verses in the Bible. It is the habit of those with unorthodox and mistaken views to take single verses out of context and out of touch with the rest of the Bible and build a theology around them.

Your view which changes the Great I AM into Zeus would be a good example of this.

Is there anything else I can help you with?

__________________________________________

"Is there anything else I can help you with?"

.

No thank you.

Is there realy any need for your continued accusation of me that I worship pagan god's? I know now that you despise me only because we disagree on a doctrin and you cannot wait to have a shot at me every post. Why do you despise and accuse me of pagan worship? You should know by now, that I being long time member here, (Posts: 1096, Joined: 16-February 02, Member No.: 69), that I am not involved in paganism, have never taught this or condoned this at all in 8 years of posting? And why accuse me of holding myself up as equal with Paul when I say that as he was accused of heresy by the religious experts of his day, so worship I God even when accused by you of being a pagan worshiper? What you say of me is not true.

1 Thess 4:7, For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. 8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit. 9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another. 10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren.

You said;

"Other than that, this one verse does not teach much else, as is the case with single verses in the Bible."

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Are you sure thats all?

I do agree that the Holy Spirit works among us and that He effects those who know Him and want Him to have an effect upon them, but unless one is born of the Holy Spirit, and ask's the Father to give them the Holy Spirit, (Luke 11:13), the Holy Spirit has no effect on one's life.

You say;

"The wind and the Spirit go where they want to go and are not subject to our will or commands."

Read the Scripture again asking the Holy Spirit to open your heart and mind.

"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit" (John 3:8).

What this Scripture teaches us is this.

As the natural man hears the natural wind, so the man born again of the Holy Spirit, hears the voice of the Spirit.

If you believe as you say that this verse teaches nothing more than, "This verse is referring to the work and the effect of the Holy Spirit. The word used for the wind in the beginning of the verse is the same word used for the Sprit at the end. The wind and the Spirit go where they want to go and are not subject to our will or commands. And, that, this one verse does not teach much else?"

I believe you do not hear Him because you may not fully know Him, and if you know Him, your may not be fully listening to Him.

_____________________________________________________________

"Your view which changes the Great I AM into Zeus would be a good example of this."

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I have never called God Zeus, I believe you gave Him that name in an earlier post, in my name, and accuse me of pagan worship.

This is my confession. I confess before all that I believe in Jesus Christ, and in Him who sent Him, and raised Him up.

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."(Romans 10:9).

Haz.

[HAZARD]

R.g.

"The God I read about in the Bible knows everything, he does not need to get off his throne (since he is not really sitting on one) and go down to the earth to find out what is going on. The Bible tells us there is nothing secret from God, he knows our thoughts before we do, and he knows what we are going to do today and tomorrow."

The Bible also tells us that Jesus is a door, a lamb, a rock, a cornerstone, but most of us know that he is not literally/physicly any of these things.

"he does not need to get off his throne (since he is not really sitting on one)"

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"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them." (Rev.20:11).

"And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia." (Rev. 19:4).

"And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon." (Matt. 23:22).

And many Scriptiures such as this one teach that Jesus sits beside the Father on His throne.

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." (Hebrews 12:2).

"he does not need to get off his throne (since he is not really sitting on one) and go down to the earth to find out what is going on."

.

"And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded." (Gen. 11:5).

"Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." (Gen. 11:7).

"I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know." (Gen. 18:21).

There are many such Scriptures in the Bible which clearly teach that God goes from place to place and finds out things for Himself when He is told there are problems, ("which is come unto me; and if not, I will know."), somewhere as I described in an earlier post.

God wants us more than anything to be of one mind, one heart, speaking the same thing. His goals are my goals. We can all accomplish His goal with love. Knowledge puffeth up, but love edifies. If we disagree on anything there is no need for name calling or engaging in a slanging match. You call what I have posted "heresy agains your God." I know nothing abour Zeus, nor do I want to know anything about him. We were discussing the Godhead, not the Trinity. We have covered much ground and I have posted hundreds of Scriptures on this doctrin which seem to mean nothing to you apart from a few you lean heavily upon and base your whole believe in God upon.

You come across in all your posts as if you are never wrong. You talk to others as if they are beneath you. Or sometimes You reach a point of mutual understanding and basically the same conclusions. You seem to have a pretty good track record there. Anyway, It looks as if you are always right, no matter what. That's what has me wondering if this conversation with you is useless. I'm not having a cheap shot at you. I'm being honets, sincere. . . .seriously.

Haz.

[HAZARD]

You come across in all your posts as if you are never wrong. You talk to others as if they are beneath you. Or sometimes You reach a point of mutual understanding and basically the same conclusions. You seem to have a pretty good track record there. Anyway, It looks as if you are always right, no matter what. That's what has me wondering if this conversation with you is useless. I'm not having a cheap shot at you. I'm being honets, sincere. . . .seriously.

Haz.

I am wrong all the time, I am not wrong about this. Your view is held by such a small minority of Christians they are not even considered a sect, just a concern.

If you goal is to change my mind, then yes, this conversation with is useless, you will not bring me to your false doctrine, no matter how many times you try.

My goal is not to change your mind; you seem too far gone at this point to see reason on this topic. The very idea that that God that created the universe has to get down off his throne and go see what is going on is just ludicrous. By this very way of thinking God has no idea what is going on right now in the world, because he is in heaven and can

[HAZARD]

"my pet theory? are you JOKING! what I am saying is the standard thought in Christianity, what you are passing off is a unorthodox doctrine at best and more likely it is just plain heresy."

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It seems to me that you are nothing but a Heresy hunter. You know heresy hunters lack mercy and Godly judgment and understanding for the most part.

No I'm not joking, I'm quite serious. I am not passing anything off as orthodox. I am simply quoting Scriptures which you deny exist.

Now instead of getting all upset and angry and accusing me of heresy, why dont you try and give us just a few Scriptural answers to those questions I asked in my last post?

Heres a reminder of them, and dont get upset if you cannot find any because there are none!

How does God move about? Scripture states that He "WALKS" when He wants to walk, (Gen. 3:8; 18:1-22).

Show us one where it says God cannot walk?

He rides on Cherubs, , the wind and chariots drawn by Cherubims , (Ps. 18:10 ; 68:17; Ezek 1:1-28).

Show us one where it says He doesnt?

He sits on His throne (Isa. 6; Rev. 4:1-5; 22:3-5).

Show us one Scripture where it says God doesn't have a throne or God doesn't sit on His throne?

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them." (Rev.20:11).

Show us one Scripture any where in the Bible where it states that God is in fact not sitting on His throne in this passage?

"And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia." (Rev. 19:4).

Show us one Scripture any where in the Bible where it states that God is in fact not sitting on His throne in this passage?

"And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon." (Matt. 23:22).

Can you show us just one Scripture from any where in the Bible where it states that God is in fact not sitting on His throne in this particular passage?

"And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded." (Gen. 11:5).

Show us one Scriptures which says God in fact never came down to earth to see the city and the tower?

"Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." (Gen. 11:7).

Show us one Scripture where it says God never went down to confuse mens language.

"I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know." (Gen. 18:21).

Show us one Scripture wher it states that God never went down see if what He was told was true about Sodom, and spoke to Abraham about Sodom

As much as you didn't like it the last time I quoted Paul, and you wrongly accused my of elevating myself to his status, he summed up those accusing him of dangerous Heresy very well.

"And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor in the city: Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:" (Acts 24:12-14).

Haz.

[Guest]

Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Ephesian 5:19

[Guest shiloh357]

God is not like that. His presence can be felt by believers everywhere but He is not personally, bodily, everywhere at the same time as many Scriptures plainly show.

That is a logical contradiction.

God's presence can only be felt where God is present. If God's presence can be felt everywhere it is because He is everywhere.

"

[HAZARD]

"that was not me, that was one of the many other people telling you how wrong your view is."

.

If as you say this is purely my view, and in your opinion it is wrong, does that make me a worshiper of Zeus and a heretic? I agree, there are a few, (Not many) who have responded and dissagree with the Scriptures I have posted to support my understanding of the Godhead. Last time I looked there was 1005 hits or views on this topic. There may be more who do not wish to get involved fortheir own reasons but at least the have the decency not to come on this board and start wrongly accusing me of Heresy.

So far, unless I missed it, you are the only Heresy Hunter who has exposed himself as such. Not one other person have even suggested quoting Scriptures, or interpreting them rightly or wrongly was a deliberate act of Heresy.

You are a Heresy Hunter and you cannot deal with another view point on anything apart from yours so you cry "HERESY."

History has shown that Heresy Hunters lack mercy and Godly understanding. We thank God that He is judge over all and not you !

In a nutshell, this is what I have been saying, quoting HUNDREDS of Scriptures that God the Father and Jesus Christ are two bodily separate and distinct beings and members of the Godhead. I aso said in an earlier post that God has not revealed where He lived before He created the Heaven and the Earth.

I began in John 1:1.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" and in John 1:14 it states;

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

The Word became flesh, not the Father. The Father remained in Heaven whilst Jesus was on the Earth. 18 time Jesus prayed to His Father, "My Father In Heaven." Jesus knew where His Father was!

Scripture clearly shows Jesus prayed to HIS FATHER, and not to Himself. Jesus is a separate and distinct being, a member of the Godhead (Romans 1:20; Colossians 2:9). They are "ONE" in unity not omnibody.

In eighty separate statements by Jesus Himself, He constantly affirmed that He was not the Father and not the only person in the Godhead. These passages will not permit us to believe in any one person as being referred to. Jesus is the speaker, but He is not the one spoken of. (Matt. 7:21; 10:32-33; 11:27; 15:13; 16:17; 18:10, 19, 35; 19:17; 20:23; 24:36; 25:34; 26:29, 39, 42, 53; Luke 2:49; John 5:17, 43; 6:32, 65; 8:19, 28, 38, 49, 54; 10:17-18, 25, 29, 30, 32, 37; 12:26-28; 14:7, 12, 20, 21, 28; 15:1, 8, 10, 4, 23; 16:23-26; 18:11; 20:17, 21; Rev. 1;1; 2:27; 3:5, 12; 5:1-7, 13; 7:9, 15-16; 10:6; 11:15; 12:10; 21:10; 21:22-23; 22:1-5.

Jesus said His Father "was greater than all" and "greater than I" (John 10:29; 14:28). He then could not be the Father. Paul also stated that the Father was "the head of Christ" (1 Cor. 3:23; 11:3). God the Father said of Jesus, "My beloved Son" (Matt. 3:16-17; 17:5; Ps. 2:7). Jesus said of Himself, "I am the Son of God" (John 10:38). Even demons said He was "the Son of God" (Mark 3:11) and the "Son of the Most High God" (Mark 5:7).

Jesus Christ existed in His Spirit body as the Word (John 1:1), throughout all eternity past, untill He divested Himself of His Spirit body and became a man.

As God He has always existed. But, as a man, in taking human form, flesh and blood, He had a beginning.

Scripture, show that Jesus Christ was one of the three divine persons of the Deity and that as God he had no beginning.

Mic. 5:2 states Jesus He existed from all eternity.

John states of Him as existing in the very beginning with the Father (John 1;1-5).

Jesus Himself said He was before Abraham, and before the World was created (John 8:58; 17:5, 24).

Paul states Christ as existing before all things and as the creator and upholder of all things (Col. 1:15-18; Heb. 1:1-3, 8; 2:10). God the Father created all things by Jesus (Eph. 3:9).

Divine names are ascribed to Him.

These divine names and titles proves that He is by nature divine and a member of the Godhead.

He is called God and Immanuel in (Matt. 1:23; John 1:1; 20:28 and Acts 20:28).

Christ the Lord (Luke 2:26); The Son of God (Matt. 4:3; 14:33; Luke 22:70; John 1:34; Rom. 1:4). He is called "MY SON" by the Father in (Matt. 3:17); The only begotten Son (John 1:18; 3:16-18; 1 John 4:9).

He is called the First and the Last. Alpha and Omega, The beginning and Ending (Rev. 22:12, 13, 16). The Lord (Acts9:17); The Son of the Highest (Luke 1:32; Mark 14:61).

The Holy Child Jesus (Acts 4:30); King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Rev. 19:16); Lord and Savious (2 Peter 3:2); and The Word Of God (Rev. 19:13), and many more such titles show He is a member of the Divine Godhead.

In Phil. 2:5-11 Paul speaks of Christ being in God's form and that He laid aside this form and limited His attributes and powers as God to become a man. These powers were given back to Him when He was exalted to the highest place with God, (Coll. 3:1; Mark 16:19), after His lowest humiliation and limitation before God-even to do nothing, say nothing, be nothing and depend entirely upon God the Father for needed grace for body, soul, and spirit, and make a sucess of the work the Father sent Him into the world to do (Phil 2:9-11; Eph. 1:21-23; Col. 1:15-24; 1 Pet. 3:22). We know He did not keep His powers and position whilst a man, else He could not have been exalted back to it.

If He had not laid aside all His Glory and power He could not have had it restored to Him as stated in John 17:5. If He had retained all His riches while on Earth He could not have become poor for our sakes as taught in 2 Cor. 8:9. If He had kept His divine form He could not have taken on human form as taught by Phil. 2:5-11.

His incarnation proves He was limited as a man and grew to manhood as we all do, and He developed normally as any other human child. All the traditional theories of Him making toy birds and animals of mud and breathing life into them so they became real creatures and ran and flew away, and the many other miraculous powers He allegedly had from birth are mere theories and traditions made up by suspicious pagans to make Him equal with their pagan gods. He was a normal man as we are, and He did no miraculous works untill He was anointed fully by the Holy Spirit (Matt. 3:16-17; John 2:11).

After Jesus was annointed by the Holy Spirit to the full, He then posessed all the gifts and Graces of the Holy Spirit to the full, and He demonstrated what being like God among men really is like and He encouraged one and all who aspire to this exalted position, of sons of God with Power (John 3:34; Acts 10:38).

He laid aside His natural and divine attributes, and their use, and became a perfect example of yieldedness to God and His Spirit to overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil (Heb. 10:5-9; Acts 10:38).

Regarding His Humanity. Human names were ascribed to Him. Rabboni (John 20:16), Jesus (Matt. 1:21), Son of Abraham and David (Matt. 1:1), Seed and Offspring of David(Rom. 1:3; Rev. 5:5; 22:16). The second man and the Last Adam (1 Cor. 15:45-47). The King of the Jews (Matt. 2:2).

He was called a "BABE," a "CHILD," and a "MAN" (Luke 2:16; Isa. 9:6; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2L4-5; Rom. 5:12-21; John 8:40; Acts 2:22; 1 Cor. 15:21, 45-47).

It was prophecied that He would be born of a human mother (Gen. 3:15; Isa. 7:14; 9:6-7; 11:1; 53:1-12; Ps. 22).

And He had flesh and blood like all other men (John 1:14; Heb. 2:14-15; 1 John 4:1-6; Luke 24:39; John 19:34).

Jesus Christ, in His glorified flesh and bone body, now sits beside the Father in Heaven (Luke 24:39; John 20:27; Mark 16:19; Luke 22:69), for the Father, who is and did remain a Spirit being, is Spirit and has a Spirit body, and must be worshiped in Spirit and truth (John 4:24). Jesus is not now sitting beside Himself in Heaven, did not talk to Himself whilst on the Earth, and the Father also did not talk to Himself from Heaven when He supposedly was on earth as some believe, neither did He send Himself to the Earth and pray to Himself in Heaven, calling Himself my Father in Heaven while He was on Earth, and to say so is foolish.

Haz.