Godhead

[Guest shiloh357]

There is no single way to determine what is figurative and what is literal.

That is not true. Part of literary analysis is determining how an author uses words as phrases as metaphors, similies, parables, allegory and other such things. Anthropromorphism is another common means of communication used in Scripture.

you seem to have missed my point totally.

How do you determine if something is a metaphors, similies, parables, allegory, anthropromorphism other such thing?

It is usually not very hard at all, when you think about it. The Ephesian idolmakers accused Paul and his company of "turning the world upside down." Anyone can tell it is hyperbole. Same is true when it is said that Caesar Augustus decreed that "all the world" should be taxed. Again, it is just hyperbole.

We use it all the time in regular conversation and there is no problem understanding it. Usually the context and the text itself clearly indicates when something figurative in the text is being employed. Does the Bible need to stop and spell it out each time?

Part of the problem is that some metaphors and similies the Bible uses would have been apparent to the original audience, as they are drawn from that culture and sometimes fly under our radar. The original authors assume the reader will pick up on these. That is why hermeneutics are so imporant.

As it relates to this thread, Hazard is unable, or unwilling to see that the Bible uses human body parts as a point of reference and has vehicles to communicate God's character and operations. The Bible does not actually say, "God has all of the same body parts that human beings have, and that human beings physically reflect God's image."

The "arm of the Lord" for instance, is a Messianic reference to Jesus. The "arm" in the Bible, particularly the "right arm" is a metaphor for strength/power.

It is clear that Hazard refuses to accept that, and barring a paradigm shift on his end of this discussion, there is nothing you can do to convince someone who refuses to be convinced.

[HAZARD]

I know its hard for people to do but before one can absorbe new knowledge one must remove old man taught knowledge from ones mind. Try and forget what the majority of people in the world THINK. Try and believe what is written, what Jesus said, what the apostles said, what God the Father said. It seems as though you have no idea of God, where He now is, or what He plans to do in the future with mankind. If there is no such place as Heaven, and if God is not there and is in fact as you believe is everywhere then explain these few prophetic Scriptures.

It might be hard to absorb new knowledge, but what you offer is not new nor is it knowledge, it is a hyper literal, cherry picking, view of the creator of the universe.

NOBODY said there was no heaven; this is a strawman because you have nothing else.

I am not going to allow you to change the subject to the end times, if you would like to do that, there is a whole forum just for that, have at it. This discussion is about the nature of God.

It is ironic that the person that has God sitting on a throne in heaven only knowing what is happening on the earth because his messengers tell him. The person that said that God not only forgets things, but it is ok that he does because he is very busy running the universe, is going to tell anyone that have no idea who God is. I know who God is, and he is not the zeus you have turned him into.

"It might be hard to absorb new knowledge, but what you offer is not new nor is it knowledge, it is a hyper literal, cherry picking, view of the creator of the universe. "

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No its not. I have posted hundreds of Scriptures in which God Himself has revealed Himself as He is. God Himself said to the Word and Holy Spirit, Let us create man in our image and in our likeness. When a human being looks in a mirror they person should see an image, an image and likeness of what God looks like. The difference being man was made of the dust of the ground and therefore a physical being, God is a Spirit being. If this is not so then God told a lie and we know He cannot lie.

"NOBODY said there was no heaven; this is a strawman because you have nothing else. "

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You said God does not live in Heaven, that He is too big and cannot be contained, and is everywhere. Jesus said 18 times in Scripture, that His father was in Heaven. he also taught us how to pray the Our Father, "WHO ART IN HEAVEN" Thy will be done on Earth AS IT IS IN HEAVEN." If this is not true, Jesus is also lying, and we know this is not so.

"I am not going to allow you to change the subject to the end times, if you would like to do that, there is a whole forum just for that, have at it. This discussion is about the nature of God."

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You cannot stop me from posting the truth and posting what is permitted by this board's administrators. The reason you dont want the end times mentioned is because what is to happen after the tribulation, after all rebellion is put downby Jesus and the ARMIES OF HEAVEN which He brings with Him, proves beyond doubt that God lives in Heaven, and His will bring His Holy City in which he lives, down to the Earth to live with men forever.

"It is ironic that the person that has God sitting on a throne in heaven only knowing what is happening on the earth because his messengers tell him. The person that said that God not only forgets things, but it is ok that he does because he is very busy running the universe, is going to tell anyone that have no idea who God is. I know who God is, and he is not the zeus you have turned him into."

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I have posted many Scriptures plainly and clearly stating God sits on His throne in Heaven in several earlier posts. You have posted not one which states that God DOES NOT sit on a throne. I also never said God forgets things. You posted that God remembered Noah. I said God has a mind and thinks, and has a lot on His mind running the universe and all in it, and He remembered Noah. Nothing wrong with that? I tell loved ones I will do certain things for them, then on the day its to be done, "I REMEMBER" to do it or what I promised, or what I said. Thats normal.

You do not the true know God, nor do you have a relationship with Him because you do not know Him. It is you who worships the God you call zeus. You have spiritualized and changed so many statements about the true God that you have nullified the true meaning of the Bible's revelation of Him. There is no question about man being made in the likeness of God. If man was made in the image and likeness of God as God HIMSELF says, then God must have a body, and an outward form and shape.

No where does the Bible say that the bodily parts of God are figures of speech or mere human expressions trying to convey some idea of God, or that they do away with the reality of God's body. All figures of speech emphasize and make as real or more real the ideas they express that if literal language were used. There can be no true figure of speech to convey an idea unless the idea conveyed is real; so If God's bodily parts are mere figures they are true figures of the real bodily parts of God. Since we do not have God's authority that He is a spiritual nothing, and since we olny have the word of man, let us forget the doctrin of the unreality of God and let us believe the Bible literally about God as we do about other subjects. Nothing but confusion will result from being dishonest with the Bible. If these facts are stated in the Bible and other theories are not, then which would be the more sensible thing to believe? You know the answer as well as I do, so you know what to believe. If and when you decide to believe the simplicity of the Bible, the subject of God, the Godhead, will be very simple to understand, buit if you accept the incomprehensible theories of men, the subject will be incomprehensible.

The heavens, Heaven itself where God is, and the Eart, are populated and if not then this Scripture is meaningless. "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." (Rev. 12:12).

Haz.

[HAZARD]

No its not. I have posted hundreds of Scriptures in which God Himself has revealed Himself as He is.

yep, you sure have given us a lot of cherry picked scriptures, most not even full verses.

God Himself said to the Word and Holy Spirit, Let us create man in our image and in our likeness.

So, then the Word and the Spirit are not God? is that what you are saying?

When a human being looks in a mirror they person should see an image, an image and likeness of what God looks like. The difference being man was made of the dust of the ground and therefore a physical being, God is a Spirit being. If this is not so then God told a lie and we know He cannot lie.

but of course the truth here is that there is more than one meaning to the phrase "in our likeness". But you can

[Guest shiloh357]

No where does the Bible say that the bodily parts of God are figures of speech or mere human expressions trying to convey some idea of God, or that they do away with the reality of God's body.

Two problems here:

1. The Bible does not stop every time figurative device is employed and say "this is figurative." It doesn't have to. Jesus' audience knew that Jesus did not really mean for us to cut off our hands or pluck out our eyes if we sin. They knew that Jesus was speaking in figurative terms. When Jesus said "I am the door," we readily understand that Jesus did not mean to be understood that Jesus is made of wood and has a knob and hangs on hinges. So, the fact that the Bible does not spell out figurative device usage each time does not really help your position.

God is not human. He is a person, but He is not a human person. Humans have eyes, ears, noses, arms, legs and so forth. God is not human. He is a Divine, omnipresent, omniscient Spirit. As a Spirit, God does not have a "right" or "left." God fills the heavens and earth, according to Scripture, making it impossible for us to confine God to body of any sort. There is no place you can go that God cannot see you.

God made the entire universe and He knows the countless trillions of stars by name. He counts the numbers of hairs on our head. He has a personal relationship with every single believer at the same time. He can hear the prayers of every believer at once from anywhere in the world. He is with the Christians in Ukraine and at the same time, He is with the Christians in Peru, Tibet, and New York. There is no place you can go in this universe that God is not.

He manages the universe, and sustains it and that means that He must govern every facet down to every atom, proton and electron. The Bible says that He created everythnig by His wisdom and sustains everything by His power, which means that He has to know the entirety of the universe, which means that He is everywhere at once sustaining everything He has created.

God by His ompresence, and omniscience, and ompnipotence holds everything together. The precludes being limited by the boundaries of a body.

Problem #2 is that the Bible never actually claims God has a body. That is something you have inferred from the texts that mention God's arm, or He is eyes or whatever. The Bible simply uses those terms to express something God is doing or a particular aspect of His chracter. God uses human terms to help us understand Him. He trascends our finite understanding and thus must communicate to us in finite terms that we can wrap our heads around.

God can see, hear, speak, think, move, etc,. but God does not need a body or body parts to do that. Our body parts allow us to mimic God albeit in a limited fashion. We need eyes to see, ears to hear, legs to walk, tongues to speak, and so forth. We are made in God's image in that we can relate to God in those terms, but that does not mean we are physical carbon copies of Him. Like God, we can hear, speak, smell, and reason in abstract concepts.

All figures of speech emphasize and make as real or more real the ideas they express that if literal language were used. There can be no true figure of speech to convey an idea unless the idea conveyed is real; so If God's bodily parts are mere figures they are true figures of the real bodily parts of God.

No, that is not how it works. God's body parts are figurative vehicles to communicate concepts related to His character and operations.

God's body parts are not figurative illustrations of His body parts. That is not even rational. Figurative devices are used to communicate literal concepts. In Isaiah 53, the "arm of the Lord" is figurative reference to God's power relative to redemption. Jesus is the object of the figure. Jesus on earth, was the revelation of God's power and strength. The word used for "arm" is the word "z'orah" in Hebrew was a refernce to the foreleg of the Passover Lamb. Jesus was the z'orah, but more than that Jesus was the Passover Lamb. You will find that other references to God's "body parts" fit the same mode of communication. They are used to illustrate something much bigger and are not meant to mean that God actually has an arm or leg or whatever.

[HAZARD]

Runningator wrote,

"I will no longer respond to your rants about how the 99% of Christians who ever lived dont agree with your view because we refuse to humble themselves to believe and other such tripe.

As for this last statement of yours, all I can say is...WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!

It was not given one line at a time and reading it that way while ignoring the rest of the Bible is why you are so mixed up in your theology.

You may not know this, but when the Bible was being written, there were no verse numbers and no chapter breaks.'

.

I am sorry you will no longer respond to my (rants), posts. Dont be upset, were only debating Scriptures. I do know how the Bible was given by God to mankind, maybe a little more so than you?

Have you ever seriously looked into how the Bible was given to mankind? Maybe not, or you wouldn't be so upset and finding and quoting Scriptures which have nothing to do with the subject at hand, "The Godhead."

Over fourty different authors wrote the sixty six books of the Bible during a period of over 1,800 years; and they all had one theme, and that is, the revealation and redemption of the human race by God through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. These books were written by men from all walks of life such as kings, priests, judges, lawyers, princes, shepherds, soldiers, courtiers, statesmen, musicians, inventors, singers, poets, preachers, prophets, fishermen, farmers, tent makers, publicans, physicians, richmen and poor men. They were written in many various lands of three continents____Europe, Asia, and Africa. They were written in different ages by many men, some who never ever saw each other or even knew what the others wrote on the same subjecs, yet when their writings became one book, there is not one contradiction among them.

Suppose fourty medical men, each in a different land and age, would write sixty books on how to cure a disease, what kind of cure would such a collection of books make. How much unity would we find in their writings? There is perfect unity between the books of the Bible, which speak of the hundreds of subjects in the realm of religion, politics, science, etc. This proves there is one divine author for all the sixty-six books. Who but a divine author could produce such a work.

As I said earlier, Jesus never once said the Scriptures were hard to understand, that they needed interpretation by any experts? Jesus said, "search the Scriptures." Jesus never said, only Bible experts who have gone to university, had a great education, or went to seminary, and to Bible college, please interpret the Bible and explian to the simple, the babes of this world, the uneducated, who God is, who I am, what God's plan of man is?

Jesus said, the Bible is a simple book to understand because it was given by God to be understood by the simple.

I wrote,

"No man can get the vastness of the Bible at once. The most simple beginners can understand the Bible one line at a time, for this is the way it was given, and it is the best way to understand it.

Haz."

"

You responded quite agressively, "As for this last statement of yours, all I can say is...WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!"

Well think again RG because not only I, but Jesus also disagrees with you.

Now how do we know the Bible was given by God to be understand by the ordinary simple people of the world and not the worldly WISE and PRUDENT?

This is how I know the Bible is a simple book to understand, even by the likes of me.

Jesus Himself thanked God that the truths of the Bible were hidden from the worldly wise who refused to believe, and stated that God has "revealed them unto babes."

"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." (Matt. 11: 25-27).

I got that message, did you? It might be that you are too wise and prudent to understand this plain simple Scripture spoken by Jesus Christ Himself.

People who can read, can open the Bible at page one and begin to read it, one line at a time, one page at a time, page by page, taking their time, untill they get to the last page. Thats how it was written. Not one person writes a book begining with the end. They usually start, At "the beginning." Those who cannot read can have it read to them by anyone who can read. Nothing hard about that, its quite "simple" really.

I am not comparing myself to Stephen or anyone else in the Bible, but "You RG," you remind me of these guys who dissbelieved Stephen a man full of faith and power, who did great wonders and miracles among the people, (Acts 6:8). When he said; "Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God" (Acts 7:56). They disbelieved Stephen's statement that He saw God and Jesus standing next to Him in Heaven. And what did these stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, who always resist the Holy Ghost do? They did as their fathers did, and so do you?

They did what you have so far done, "they cried out with a loud voice, and they blocked their ears. But, fortunately for those who believe that God is in Heaven, and Jesus is beside Him, you cannot go this far, "They cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul." (Acts 7:58).

Praise God in Heaven forever more for He has revealed Himself to mankind, who He created in His own image and likeness.

Haz.

[BrotherDavid]

The "arm of the Lord" for instance, is a Messianic reference to Jesus. The "arm" in the Bible, particularly the "right arm" is a metaphor for strength/power.

Do you believe Ephesians 3:9 is literal or figurative?

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

(Ephesians 3:9)

IN the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

(Genesis 1:1)

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

(St. John 1:3)

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

(St. John 1:10)

[HAZARD]

As said several times in earlier posts. I believe in Jesus Christ and in Him, (the Father) who sent Him. So I hope this finally clears up that I am not a worshiper of false Gods, not am I a heretic. I do disagree with fundamental Christianities and some members on these boards and others, understanding of who God is and whether God has a spirit body or not, a body which I believe we were made in the image and likenes of, the only difference between our body only, not our minds or divine powes God has, and God's body is, God has a spirit body and we have a made of the dust of the ground physical body.

Whatever is found of excellence in a created creature or created thing is derived from the creator and exists in Him in an infinite sense. What ever good thing the created creature can do the creator can do likewise. Whatever ability or attribute a created creature has, the creator also has it in perfection. The passages I have quoted proves that God is as real as His creation. If God created an ear, does He not have one? If God created the eyes, does He not have them? He that chastens the disobedient, shall He not live in obedience to His own laws? He that teaches knowledge and wisdom, does He not have these abilities?

Instead of these statements proving that God does not have ears, eyes, mind, other bodily parts and soul and spirit faculties, they prove that He does have them.

Instead of God making such statements to prevent the so-called error of humanizing Him, and attributing members of corpreal parts to Him, He makes them to teach plainly that He, as a SPIRIT BEING does have such parts. Is it not easy to believe what the Bible says about Him, as to believe what it does not say? If God had said one time that He did not have bodily parts, soul passions, and spirit faculties as we know them in all intelligent free moral agents, then the subject could easily be settled that way. But when God repeatedly refers to human bodily parts and ordinary soul and spirit faculties to reveal Himself and show what He is like, then we should believe what He says about Himself. If we refuse to do so, we stand condemned as unbelievers.

Haz.

[BrotherDavid]

Do you believe Ephesians 3:9 is literal or figurative?

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

(Ephesians 3:9)

Looking at just that one verse there would be no way to know.

Lets look at the context, something that is very imporant that so many people dont want to do...

7 Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God

[HAZARD]

"in a nutshell, no the creator does not have to have all of what the created has. This is silly logic, to say the least. God created trees, does God had branches? God created dogs, does God have a tail? God created woman, does God have breast? God created birds, does God have wings? God created rocks, does God have really hard skin?"

.

Wake up to yourself. God created man in HIS IMAGE AND LIKENESS. Most adults are sane enough to understand God was not refering to dog's trees or rocks being made in His image and likeness?

God also created the heaven and the Earth. You believe He fills ever nook and cranny of His entire creation. Now who's not with the program? According to your logic, when you look at a tree, you must see God, when you look at a dog, you must see God, when you look at a bird, you must see God, when you look at the moon you see God?

"cool, 99% of Christians who ever lived stand condemned as unbelievers, according to the wise and mighty Haz!!!!"

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Go back to sleep. Facts are facts, if the cap fits wear it. People are not condemned according to me, they are condemned by GOD, the one you do not know.

Something else you probably dont know. As of 07/01/10 the world population was 6,830,586,985 people. Of these roughly 2 billion are professed Christians, Even if half were luke warm, the other half are idol worshipers and followers of men, that doesnt leave many true believers.

[BrotherDavid]

Your context is still only in part, as God's truth is all of God's Word...

I agree, which has been my point to Haz for the last 20 pages

This God's servant also believes that Ephesians 3:9 as well is literal...

it is nice that we agree

Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

(I Corinthians 10:9) (A.D. 59)

And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

(Numbers 21:6) (B.C. 1452)

Do you then believe that these verses are literal?

Yes, with the exception I dont think the snakes were on fire, but that it is a reference to their venom

I agree, which has been my point to Haz for the last 20 pages

Are you confused? This is Brother David's post, not Hazards...

God's Word does not say the LORD sent snakes that were on fire, but stated, And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

(Numbers 21:6) (B.C. 1452)

And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.

(Numbers 21:5) (B.C. 1452)

Do you believe that literally, in Numbers 21:6, the fiery serpents were sent in the wilderness?