Who is my "brother" in Christ?

[eis]

yeah, go find people who don't konw the Bible and who are gullible enough to buy the snake oil you are peddling.

Like I said.

[eis]

only those who get baptized under the auspices of the C of C receive valid baptism

No, as we have been directed in Scripture.

Any doctrine that makes baptism or anything else the object of our faith instead of Jesus should be rejected and trampled underfoot as false gospel.

I firmly agree with you there.

[eis]

Interestingly there are so many who will quote OT principles and understand that the unclean were not allowed into the temple or camp. Understanding that when one was unclean they washed the wash of purification ending their period of uncleanness.

yes but that was pertaining to ritual, not spiritual uncleanness.

And I would also add that such practices of ritual purification before entering Jerusalem were extra-biblical and not part of the commandments of the Torah.

I wasn't talking about entering the presence of Jerusalem. I was referring to entering the temple or camp. See Lev 11-17 or there about.

In Paul's account of his own conversion he tells how Ananias told him to be baptized washing away his sins and speaks of the washing of regeneration in Titus 3:6.

But in Acts 9:17, Ananias referred to him as "brother Saul" prior to his baptism, meaning that Paul was already considered a believer prior to His being baptized.

And being a believer doesn't save you

You don't even know what the baptism of repentance is.

Then teach me what it is, don't leave me hanging.

[Guest Joe in Arkansas]

In a separate thread I managed to experience the ire of some on this board because I was bold enough to state a dividing line between what I read in the Scripture vs what some teach regarding salvation. To wit I was called a pinhead, judgmental and probably some other things. An Admin closed the topic, probably the best thing to do since it was heated.

But I ask, why should one call another brother when he cannot agree with the other's teaching regarding how one is "saved"? Is it possible that one is right and the other is not if their teachings do not jive? If I feel that one is not saved until they have been obedient in baptism and cannot stay saved unless they continue in the faith, and another on this board feels that all you have to do is believe and you are forever saved, am I to just sit here and avoid the question?

Many accuse those of us who teach that there is more required than belief to entering the family of God as being works oriented, thereby nullifying faith. I would say this is a complete misunderstanding. I would say that the Scripture teaches that many will believe, but many will not enter into heaven. If I teach one who has believed and has been baptized that they must remain faithful to the Lord to be saved is that any different than teaching that one who hears must believe and one who believes must repent? Confess? and be Baptized(immersed)? Teaching one what they "must do to be saved" depends on where they are. It is much like telling someone how to get to St Louis...it depends on where you are when you ask.

So, if you teach faith only salvation and God's election and I don't agree, should I call you brother?

Dear eis,

I am a brand new member here so forgive me if I am jumping in too soon to discuss such a misunderstood subject as personal salvation. I would like to remind everyone that Christ is the one who does the saving. Jesus Christ is the Savior. We can do nothing to save ourselves. To take credit for our own salvation, even in small ways is wrong. Please take a look at Paul's conversion. It was a pattern for us all to follow. One minute Paul was trying to destroy the church and then Christ appeared to him and converted him. When Christ appears to us (spiritually speaking), we are converted just as easily. We are all dependent upon Christ and He will not let anyone down. God the Father sent Christ to save the world. How can He then fail not to do it? He cannot. Have patience for God's plan of salvation to unfold. He has purposed it and He will do it.

May the Lord bless you,

Joe in Arkansas

[eis]

Dear eis,

I am a brand new member here so forgive me if I am jumping in too soon to discuss such a misunderstood subject as personal salvation. I would like to remind everyone that Christ is the one who does the saving. Jesus Christ is the Savior. We can do nothing to save ourselves. To take credit for our own salvation, even in small ways is wrong. Please take a look at Paul's conversion. It was a pattern for us all to follow. One minute Paul was trying to destroy the church and then Christ appeared to him and converted him. When Christ appears to us (spiritually speaking), we are converted just as easily. We are all dependent upon Christ and He will not let anyone down. God the Father sent Christ to save the world. How can He then fail not to do it? He cannot. Have patience for God's plan of salvation to unfold. He has purposed it and He will do it.

May the Lord bless you,

Joe in Arkansas

Thanks Joe. I hope you fully understand that I too believe that it is Christ who paid it all and that all I can do is respond to his saving grace. This whole discussion is about how we respnd to the gospel call. As you can tell, not all agree. Some disagree so much that they resort to personal attacks.

I would recommend that you NOT spend your time here looking for answers. There's too much confusion for those young in Christ. As a matter of fact I am not long for this site myself.

May God Continually Richly Bless You.

[eis]

Dear eis,

I am a brand new member here so forgive me if I am jumping in too soon to discuss such a misunderstood subject as personal salvation. I would like to remind everyone that Christ is the one who does the saving. Jesus Christ is the Savior. We can do nothing to save ourselves. To take credit for our own salvation, even in small ways is wrong. Please take a look at Paul's conversion. It was a pattern for us all to follow. One minute Paul was trying to destroy the church and then Christ appeared to him and converted him. When Christ appears to us (spiritually speaking), we are converted just as easily. We are all dependent upon Christ and He will not let anyone down. God the Father sent Christ to save the world. How can He then fail not to do it? He cannot. Have patience for God's plan of salvation to unfold. He has purposed it and He will do it.

May the Lord bless you,

Joe in Arkansas

One other thought. Spend you time in the Scripture. I am not strong on theology, but I do know the Word. You'll get a lot of theology here, I am not sure that is what any of us need.

[Guest Joe in Arkansas]

Dear eis,

I am a brand new member here so forgive me if I am jumping in too soon to discuss such a misunderstood subject as personal salvation. I would like to remind everyone that Christ is the one who does the saving. Jesus Christ is the Savior. We can do nothing to save ourselves. To take credit for our own salvation, even in small ways is wrong. Please take a look at Paul's conversion. It was a pattern for us all to follow. One minute Paul was trying to destroy the church and then Christ appeared to him and converted him. When Christ appears to us (spiritually speaking), we are converted just as easily. We are all dependent upon Christ and He will not let anyone down. God the Father sent Christ to save the world. How can He then fail not to do it? He cannot. Have patience for God's plan of salvation to unfold. He has purposed it and He will do it.

May the Lord bless you,

Joe in Arkansas

Thanks Joe. I hope you fully understand that I too believe that it is Christ who paid it all and that all I can do is respond to his saving grace. This whole discussion is about how we respnd to the gospel call. As you can tell, not all agree. Some disagree so much that they resort to personal attacks.

I would recommend that you NOT spend your time here looking for answers. There's too much confusion for those young in Christ. As a matter of fact I am not long for this site myself.

May God Continually Richly Bless You.

Dear Eis,

Thanks for responding. You are the first one to respond to me. Though I am new to this site, I have considered myself a Christian since I was a child. I spend most of my life searching for answers to the tough questions and have been tossed around by the winds of many different doctrines. At age 44, Christ opened my eyes and ears, so that I could see and hear spiritually. After that point, (5 years ago), the scriptures finally opened up to me and I found answers to the tough questions. I soon discovered that most of what is taught as truth in the Christian world is actually not scriptural. I was completely amazed at the spiritual blindness that I was a part of within the "Christian churches" all those years. I have been members at baptist, Church of Christ, pentecostal, non-denominational and other churches throughout my search for Christ and His truth. But just as Paul, Christ came to me (not physically but spiritually) and took away my blindness. Hopefully, I will be able to share some of the things the Lord has shown me with other persons who are seeking to know Christ in the deepest way (as the Lord wills).

I would like to respond to something you said in your response to me. You said that you agree that "it is Christ who paid it all". If Christ paid it all as you say, then why do you need to do anything - its all paid. We have no ability to pay for any of our sins because we are sinners. The law of sin & death (the soul that sins must die) demands our death - permanent and everlasting death. John 10:10 says that Christ came to give us life and for us to have it more abundantly. Christ gave all men life by dying on the cross and paying that sin debt that we all have. When He died on the cross, He satisfied the first part of John 10:10 "to give us life". Now, all men will be resurrected by Christ in either the first or second resurrections. As John the Baptist said, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world". Christ came to take away the sin of the world and He was completely and eternally successful. Most of the Christian world believes that Christ did not and will never succeed in accomplishing this first part of John 10:10. But He has accomplished it and is now working on giving all men life more abundantly. This He accomplishes by making us into His image through the process of conversion. This as been the plan of God for mankind since Genesis 1:26 ... let us make man in our image. What the salvation question really is, is not about having eternal life but about having life more abundantly. To God, abundant life is to have a life that is free from sin. Though the sin debt is paid, God wants us to stop sinning as well. The Church (the Bride of Christ or Firstfruits) are the first group that Christ chooses to be converted. He does the converting. We have no power to convert ourselves. It is the work of Christ. "Many are called but few are chosen" to be in Christ's church. They are the firstfruits of the harvest. But Christ is not done until the full crop has been harvested. He is now in the process of harvesting the firstfruits (the church). This will be completed at the first resurrection. If you have not been chosen to be in the church, then you will not be in the church. It's that simple. Christ chooses His church, not us and His choosing was accomplished before we were ever born. The good news is that if Christ did not choose you for the firstfruits harvest, you will be harvested at the end of the growing season. He will not abandon anyone to rot in the field. All those who are not in the 1st resurrection will come back to life in the second and will be judged at that time. I call that time of judgment the lake of fire age. During that time, all men will be converted. That is what the purpose of the church is - to be used during this age to convert the rest of mankind for the great harvest at the end of the age. Once this is accomplished and all men are "in Christ", fully made into the image of God, Christ will offer up the kingdom to God the Father and then God will be "all in all". Christ will be completely successful in his mission to save the world and to make mankind into His image. He will not fail even though the churches of the world believe he will fail for just about everyone. Remember, Christ's love and mercy never end, not even after death. Christ uses judgment to teach His righteousness. His judgment has a grand and glorious purpose, unlike what the churches of the world teach.

So, as you can tell from what I have written above, our salvation is assured. Christ will do the necessary work. Repentance, faith, baptism and enduring to the end are works of Christ which gives to us. It is His faith that He gives us, He causes us to repent, He baptizes us with His Holy Spirit which causes our conversion and He empowers us to endure to the end. All those who are not chosen to be in His church are not forgotten or unloved by Christ. They will find Christ at the end of the final age. Christ loves all men equally but He blesses us and uses us all different in accomplishing His plan for mankind. What a glorious future we all have. That is the Good News that the church should be proclaiming. Christ draws us to Himself out of love and not fear. There is no fear in love or in Christ. He loves all His children and will not lose any.

If you care to discuss any of the points I made or see supporting scriptures, I would be happy to do so.

May the Lord bless you,

Joe in Arkansas

[eis]

Joe,

So you believe that there is no eternal damnation, ergo hell as we speak of it? Just asking. And, you also believe that Christ chooses on a tiered level who He will reward e.g. first or second?

I'm curious, with whom do you worship now?

[Guest shiloh357]

Then that guy who says he believes and a meteor fall on his head as soon as he believes is not saved?

No, one is saved the moment they believe. The point is that the authenticity of that faith will be borne out in how they conduct their lives.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Mar 25 2010, 09:37 AM)

QUOTE

He did tell the blind man to wash in the pool to receive his gift of sight. He told the lepers to go show themselves to the priests.

Neither of which has anything to do with salvation but with receiving a conditional blessing.

It has a lot to do with doing things as we are told, not as we wish.

It has to do with conditional blessings. Salvation is offered unconditionally. We are told to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. Salvation is not procured by performing a grocery list of tasks.

Hmmm, and here I was thinking that Paul got his direction from the Holy Spirit and that the common thread of redemption was proven through prophesy & fulfillment thereof. I had no idea that every NT concept had to have an OT counterpart. Sound like old wine skins to me!

The Scriptures were Paul's textbook and the hundreds of direct OT quotations and hundreds more Old Testamnet allusions prove it. The Holy Spirit was directly instrumental in how Paul handled the OT and inspired Paul to quote from the OT. That has nothing to do with old wineskins. It has to do with being honest about the text and how the NT writers wrote.

I beg to differ. The actions of the early church is a strong example of how those who were lost came into the kingdom.

the early church is not offered to us as a pattern of how we are to live. The Bible leaves us a record of the earliest beginnings of the Church but does not teach that their practices and actions serve as a blueprint for us. Their practices and procedures are not offered to us doctrine or as Divine instruction/prescription for modern church practice and procedure.

And that is because you were baptized after you were saved instead of the other way around as it should be.

Baptism is an emblem of faith. One cannot be baptized and then get saved. That is backwards. It makes baptism the agent of salvation. Salvation is work of God. Baptism is an act obedience by one who believes. Jesus, not baptism is the object of my faith.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Mar 25 2010, 09:48 AM)

QUOTE

In Paul's account of his own conversion he tells how Ananias told him to be baptized washing away his sins and speaks of the washing of regeneration in Titus 3:6.

But in Acts 9:17, Ananias referred to him as "brother Saul" prior to his baptism, meaning that Paul was already considered a believer prior to His being baptized.

And being a believer doesn't save you

And that is the heart of your error. You have perverted salvation from a free gift into something that must be earned or deserved.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

(Eph 2:8-9)

You are trusting in more than Jesus for salvation and places you outside authentic, biblical New Testament Christianity and outside of Christ.

Yet, gifts must be received. They can also be rejected. The receipt of any gift at a minimum requires q giver and one willing to accept the gift. How the gift is receive then becomes the method of transfer.

A gift must be received and salvation is a free gift. It is not something that we can win, earn or deserve. It is something given freely to anyone who will receive it by faith. Faith, not baptism is the vehicle by which the gift is received. So far, you have rangled agaisnt that fact, but you have not provided any satisifactory refutation of that. All you offer is same tired Cult of Christ drivel about baptism that we have seen a million times on this board and completely reject now as before.

[priest4Him]

So, if you teach faith only salvation and God's election and I don't agree, should I call you brother?

Who is our brothers, sisters and mothers?

Matthew 12:50

For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.

Mark 3:35

For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.

Nuff said ...

Amen