Who is my "brother" in Christ?

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE

No the Bible says the demons believe in God. I asked you for where the Bible says that someone can believe on Jesus (for salvation) and still go to hell in faith. You said that the Bible teaches it so either produce it, or admit that you are wrong.

Now you're moving the goalposts.

No I am not changing the goal posts. James is not addressing believing faith. He is simply showing the futility of simply "believing in God." The demons believe that God exists. So believing in God in and of itsself is nothing.

If a demon believes in the God of the bible then why weren't they saved before the coming of Christ?

Because redemption only applies to the descendents of Adam. It does not extend to demons or satan. Angels or demons are not the objects of redemption, so believing would not avail them of anything.

Belief alone does not save you.

Belief does not save. It is Christ alone who saves. Faith is simply the vehicle through which I receive the grace made available by Christ's finished work on the cross. The issue is not Faith vs. Baptism, but Baptism vs. Christ.

If certain acts will condemn someone to hell (i.e. adultery, murder, etc.) then wouldn't it be reasonable to conclude that faith and works by obedience will get you to heaven?

Yes, that would be reasonable, IF it worked that way. But no one goes to hell for those things. Man is born separated from God. He is born spiritually dead and even if a person were to live without committing a single sin, he would still go to hell. We go to hell not because of we do, but because of what we are. We forgiveness for what we have done, but we need deliverance from what we are. Without Christ we stand before God under the law, by default. "under the law" is not referring to the law of Moses. It refers to the law's sentence of death that hangs over the head of all humanity. Without Jesus, we stand before under a curse or sentence of death and the only way to satisfy God's justice is for the spiritual demand of death to be paid. Jesus paid sin debt on the cross. He paid what we owed.

It is actually the opposite of what you suggest. Good works do not get you to heaven and evil works do not send you to hell. If good works get you to heaven, then salvation is not a gift and Jesus' death on the cross was pointless and unnecessary. The only works that get you to heaven are the works Jesus did on the cross.

Faith and works. If all the Israelites had to do was have faith then why the need for all commands to worship?

Because no one said all you have to have is faith. That is the problem. You have all these "cookie-cutter" responses ready for what you THINK I am saying. I have never said that all a person needs is faith. What I am saying is that you are not going to receive salvation outside of or apart from faith in Christ alone. Our faith is in Christ alone. Jesus + 0 = Salvation.

Why did God not accept Nadab and Abihu's fire? Why couldn't Noah, Moses, and Abraham just have had faith and let God do the rest? They had to ACT on their faith.

Right. Works are evidence of faith. Real faith produces corresponding action. Works that accompany true, biblical faith are the evidence or fruit of salvation, not the means of finding or obtaining salvation.

If Noah was saved before the flood then there was no need for him to make an ark don't you think?

Noah already found grace with God. He was already a man of faith who walked with God. Evidently, God wanted Noah to live on, so God saved Noah's physical life and the lives of his family. I don't see why that would even be an issue.

No one is saying faith and works don't go hand in hand but it seems to me you're trying to separate the two.

No, I am the one who has consistently said that faith produces corresponding actions. I am not separating them. What I am doing is showing the proper perspective is that works are to be seen as the fruit of salvation, not the means of getting saved.

So once we accept Jesus we give up our free will? We can never be lost after that?

Depends on whether or not salvation depends on you or Jesus. Are you the savior or is Jesus??? If a man is drowning in a river, he is unable to save himself. He is totally dependent on someone else to save him. If he could do enough to secure himself, then he would not have been drowning in the first place. If you can do enough good works to save and change yourself, then you would not be a sinner and would not need Jesus.

You can depend on yourself and hope that you have done enough good to offset your sin, or you can put your faith in the sufficiency of Christ to save you. Security depends on who or what is saving you.

QUOTE

Yes, God pretty much did everything for them. In the end, it was God and God alone who won their freedom. Their obedience was a work of faith nothing they did in their own strength won their freedom. If they could have done anything to gain their freedom, they didn't need God to do it for them.

I'm not saying God is insignificant in any of this. But if God told you to come to the fountain would you come or would you sit and say "I believe He'll bring the fountain to me." They had to act on their faith, they couldn't just sit around and let God do it all, if that were the case He wouldn't have needed Moses and would have gotten Pharaoh to just let them go somehow.

The problem again, is that you are trying to make it appear as if I am saying that faith/belief, negates any need to lift a finger, and I am saying precisely the opposite.

[Guest shiloh357]

I'm not doing works to be glorified. I'm doing works because I'm commanded to.

You are doing them because you think you have to do them to get heaven.

The thing of it all is, don't do works to be seen of men, some people make a spectacle out of it, "Oh look I visited the sick!" vs. someone going to visit the sick regardless if they are seen or not, they visit the shut in because they care about the person, not the deed. There's a huge difference and that is what the Bible is talking about.

God does not share His glory. For you to claim that your works get you into heaven, you are diminishing the work of Christ on the cross and ascribing your own effort to save you. Salvation is not a partnership between you and God. Your works are worthless and ineffectual. You either trust in Christ alone, or you will go to hell.

If faith only is needed why did Jesus say to the rich man this: Mark 10:17-21 - And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Couldn't Jesus have just told him to have faith and believe?

I didn't say faith only is needed. I said Jesus Christ only is needed. He is the object of our faith. He alone is the Savior.

So you just said, we are expected to live in accordance with God's commandments, to be a light to the world... that would be a work wouldn't it?

Yes, but it is a work that lets the light shine. It is a work that is a testimony to salvation. It is not what we do to be saved. You have to be saved before your works can be a light to the world. Again, you work to put salvation on display. You do not work to earn it.

What about the Ethiopian Eunuch? Why was he baptized in the water?

Because it was a commandment from God. His willingness and earnest desire to be baptised was the product of his salvation.

Couldn't he have just been baptized with the spirit and let go on his merry way?

Not when it was in his power to be obedient. Had there been no access to water, he would have still have been saved anyway. He would have just been baptized at a later time, but that would not have effected his salvation.

He still had to do the work that which was required of him though...

Yes, but it was done as a result of faith. He was a man who both grace and faith and as a result he built the ark. The construction of the ark was evidence of faith and a saving walk with God.

Let me ask you something, if baptism is only referring to Holy Spirit baptism, why was Jesus immersed in water?

I did not say that. I said not every reference to baptism refers to being immersed in water. Jesus immersed in water to identify with us.

How does one distinguish between a "Holy Spirit" baptism and one that is immersed in water?

The Holy Spirit immerses or places us into Christ at the moment of salvation. Water immersion is a picture of that spiritual immersion/identification.

[eis]

Fact: The Ethiopian eunuch easily recognized the need to be baptized and called out for baptism on the road to Gaza. John was taken only after the baptism not before. (Salvation was made complete at baptism)

First of all, it was Phillip not John.

Yep, Philip. I don't know why I put John.

[eis]

One last fact: There is no point that can be made to a listener whose retort consists of "it doesn't mean that" or a direct negative imperative doesn't mean something is important. If you don't understand, a good example is: Mark 16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. NASB

The retort is "He didn't say anything about NOT being baptized, so it doesn't have anything to do with salvation!"

One last fact is that you have absolutely no ability correctly recall what I said. What I said was that you are applying a negative inferrance fallacy to the text of Mark 16:16. You are working from the assumption that since the text says, "he that believes and is baptised shall be saved," the opposite must also be true, that he who believes and is not baptised will not be saved. You assume that since the positive true, all negatives must likewise be true. We don't operate with kind of fallacious thinking in real life and it is unreasonable to operate that way where the Bible is concerned.

You basically have a handful of verses that you string together to make a doctrine out of and no solid teaching from the NT that water immersion is necessary for salvation.

Actually I have read your insistence regarding the "negative inference fallacy". I have ignored it because you set a preconditioned premise to prove your point. You say that salvation occurs at the point of belief only. That "sets" you argument. I disagree. I look at the whole of the Scripture and derive my "inference" from that.

I see no reason to continue this back and forth with you. Not because I think you are correct, but because I am wasting my time. Your "pat" answers and denominational thinking have hooded your views. Using man-made doctrines and man-made logic makes yours an impervious barrier. I will try no longer to convince you beyond your acceptance of man-made theology.

[nebula]

What about Romans 10:9,10?

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved ; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

[eis]

What about Romans 10:9,10?

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved ; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

What does this say?

[eis]

It says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

To clarify what "believe in your heart" means, results in fruit of the Spirit and "confess with your mouth" results in salvation.

]****So that verse right there states that it must be a confession with the mouth and a belief in the heart. Good works are a result(sanctification).****

I look at it this way, OSASers and Non-OSASers are basically saying the same thing.

So all I need to do is believe?

[1Mind1Spirit]

" SHALL BE " " WILL BE " not "IS SAVED "

[Guest shiloh357]

Actually I have read your insistence regarding the "negative inference fallacy". I have ignored it because you set a preconditioned premise to prove your point.

No, I am just pointing out the obvious fallacy in your beggardly approach to Scripture.

You say that salvation occurs at the point of belief only. That "sets" you argument. I disagree. I look at the whole of the Scripture and derive my "inference" from that.

If baptism were required for salvation, it would be part of EVERY discussion about salvation in the NT. That fact is that Paul in multiple places where the doctrine of salvation is discussed, baptism is NEVER referenced as an agent of salvation, when it is mentioned. Furthermore, there are multiple discussions about the doctrine of salvation where baptism is not included in how a person is saved.

I see no reason to continue this back and forth with you. Not because I think you are correct, but because I am wasting my time. Your "pat" answers and denominational thinking have hooded your views. Using man-made doctrines and man-made logic makes yours an impervious barrier. I will try no longer to convince you beyond your acceptance of man-made theology.

Sorry, but it is YOU that are operating from man-made theology, if it can be even called "theology." Frankly, it is a trainwreck and is leading many to trust in their works instead of Christ and as a result of this cultic teaching, is leading many to hell.

I see no reason to continue this back and forth with you.

Neither do I. You said something like that before, but here you are. If you are going to leave, then leave.

[eis]

Sorry, but it is YOU that are operating from man-made theology, if it can be even called "theology." Frankly, it is a trainwreck and is leading many to trust in their works instead of Christ and as a result of this cultic teaching, is leading many to hell.

So now your are the judge. Judging me to hell and those who understand the same way.

I see no reason to continue this back and forth with you.

Neither do I. You said something like that before, but here you are. If you are going to leave, then leave.

Actually there are one or two others I am "speaking" with in this thread