Who is my "brother" in Christ?

[RebekahDavid]

The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying,

Sir, we would see Jesus. John 12:21

>>>>>()<<<<<

I noticed that you quoted extensively from John's gospel. Did you happen to notice that all of this was to covenant Jews before his death on the cross. Therefore this has nothing to do with becoming a Christian or with his church. It is not about the Christian era at all.

The quote from 1 John was written to Christians, ie, those already saved. It is not telling how to be saved. Even believers must continue to believe.

Work

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John 6:28-29

Work

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Romans 3:27

Work

Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. Habakkuk 2:4

Strut

There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. Proverbs 16:25

Strut

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. 2 Corinthians 11:3-4

Strut

Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. Galatians 1:3-7

Eat

And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.

And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. Luke 4:3-4

Eat

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16-17

Eat

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

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The Whole Bible Is The

Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, Psalms 40:7

Big Book

Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Hebrews 10:7

Of Jesus

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. John 1:1-5

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Be Very Careful

He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. John 21:17

You Do Not Use The Ways Of Men

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Colossians 2:8

To Steal The Bread From The Little Children

Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. Matthew 18:14

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Trust In

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. Proverbs 3:5-7

The LORD Jesus

Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:

And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting. Psalms 139:23-24

And Be Blessed Beloved

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Galatians 4:6

Love, Joe

And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. Matthew 18:2-5

well put brother joe

love your sister in Christ,

Rebekah David

[Guest shiloh357]

The point I am ultimately getting to is easily illustrated in our exchange. Some places you accept doctrine, other places I accept doctrine.

That is not how it works. Doctrine is comprised of those portions of Scripture that provide a foundation for living. The verses you point to Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, etc. are not doctrinal passages and thus cannot be used to form or create doctrine. In fact, Mark 16:16 is a questionable passage to boot. You pencil in doctrine where it does not exist such as in the "water" of John 3 which you presume is baptismal water (even though Christian baptism did not exist at that time).

Sometimes we agree on the same Scriptures as doctrine. You tell me where doctrine is neatly laid out. It is derived from the whole of Scripture, and as I am sure you have indicated not from a select few that prove only one view. Tie it all together, one place speaks of saving faith, another repentance and another baptism. Why throw out portions?

I am not throwing out anything. The problem is that if the notion that water immersion were required for salvation, we would see more detailed doctrinal discussions of it in the Pauline and general epistles. We would see entire chapters just on that topic like the way Romans 4 deals with the subject of justification. There would be multitudious discussions. We would see types and shadows and there would Old Testament prophecies about it.

The point is that the elements we would expect to see pertinent to a biblical doctrine do not occur where the notion of water immersion being required for salvation. There are no shadows, prophecies, nor numerous doctrinal discussions pertaining to this issue. It is not a doctrine and it is not part of an authetic Christian worldview.

Then you deny the anti-type I Peter 3. Looks like we use different hermeneutics.

No, I am simply applying the anti-type to what Peter applies it to. Water in the account of Noah's flood was not the agent of salvation. It was the agent of judgment. Peter is not saying that the flood saved Noah. It was the ark (a type of Christ) that was the agent of salvation. Noah was not saved by the flood. He was saved FROM the flood. Peter is not attributing water to salvation, but to a clear conscience, which is the result of salvation. The flood waters were not a type of salvation thus salvation cannot be attained through water immersion.

[gord]

Who is my brother in Christ--------------------And Be Blessed Beloved

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Galatians 4:6

RebekahDavid-Wrote this----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I Believe these would be my brothers.--gord---To God be The Glory.-

[deut31:12]

That doesn't prove your point, but this proves mine -

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. James 2:24

It goes on to say that faith without works is dead, meaning that our faith without our obedience to the gospel is dead. We can't stand here and say that we believe in God, yet do not the things written in the gospel of Christ and baptism is part of this.

I just read over James chapter 2, wholly. Let's say people are justified by works like it seems Scripture is to be saying in this chapter.

Still, God is not saying that you lose your Salvation because of the bad things you do. That is my opinion though.

When reading over James chapter 2 alone, only that chapter because remember, you chose to quote that verse, where does God imply or state even that one can lose their Salvation because of the things they do?

I'm inclined to think that the word "justified" being used in this area of Scripture is speaking of being justified by society, not by God Himself.

Because God Himself justified us by giving Himself to save us from Himself by giving His only Begotten Son Jesus Christ to die on the Cross for the sins of all that none should perish. That is justification from God Himself.

The other in James I think is speaking of being justified by the world. They will see the work of Jesus through our example of good deeds.

P.S. I think "works" and "fruit of the Spirit" have 2 separate meanings

The only people in our lives we need to be justified by is God. We were justified when we were saved, but we still have the rest of our lives to live in accordance to what the scriptures have laid out for us to live by. In essence, how can I say that I have a believe and faith in God if my lifestyle still reflects my old sinful life?

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Romans 8:11-13

This here does say that you will die if you do bad things. There is a big difference between a striving Christian who falls and somebody who keeps sin in their lives not wanting to repent.

Even though we have been saved by Jesus we are still debtors to the fact that we have to repent of our sins and this is not an overnight job. It takes a working at it. I.e. I used to smoke and it took me a long time with a lot of diligence to quit, but I eventually overcame it. Our lives before God are the same. Just because we got saved does not take away all the desires of sin out of our hearts overnight. It takes a life time of work to put away the desires of this flesh.

The faith that James is referring to is that if we claim to have faith in God then we need to show it by what we do in our lives in putting away the carnal desires and acts.

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Ezekiel 18:24

This is not for every time we sin. It is a mindset for man to consider that all the righteousness that I do will not balance the scale for me the day that I turn to live in sin. This is to let us know that sin is very serious with God. Here is an example -

For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. 2 Timothy 4:10

Demas made the choice to leave Christianity for the love of this present world and the scriptures tell us that all that in the world is the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. So, with all of the work that Demas did in traveling with Paul spreading the gospel will not be mentioned because he chose to turn his back on God and live a life of sin. So, our deeds can condemn us when they are not or righteousness.

What "works" is being defined by in the bible is our obedience to the scriptures. When we repent of our sins and live by the fruits of the Spirit we are doing the works that define our faith. When we are told through the scriptures to, "Work out your salvation in fear and trembling" is referring to the putting away of the sins of our flesh. The repenting of the things that the scriptures tell us not to do. When we quit lying, stealing, cheating, committing adultery/fornication, evil speaking, etc. we are doing the "works" that we are told to do and this is what James speaks of that our "faith without works is dead".

Works in and of themselves don't save us, but they are a great part of our Christianity. Eph 2:10 states that we were created unto good works and ordained that we should walk in them.

[eis]

That doesn't prove your point, but this proves mine -

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. James 2:24

It goes on to say that faith without works is dead, meaning that our faith without our obedience to the gospel is dead. We can't stand here and say that we believe in God, yet do not the things written in the gospel of Christ and baptism is part of this.

I just read over James chapter 2, wholly. Let's say people are justified by works like it seems Scripture is to be saying in this chapter.

Still, God is not saying that you lose your Salvation because of the bad things you do. That is my opinion though.

When reading over James chapter 2 alone, only that chapter because remember, you chose to quote that verse, where does God imply or state even that one can lose their Salvation because of the things they do?

I'm inclined to think that the word "justified" being used in this area of Scripture is speaking of being justified by society, not by God Himself.

Because God Himself justified us by giving Himself to save us from Himself by giving His only Begotten Son Jesus Christ to die on the Cross for the sins of all that none should perish. That is justification from God Himself.

The other in James I think is speaking of being justified by the world. They will see the work of Jesus through our example of good deeds.

P.S. I think "works" and "fruit of the Spirit" have 2 separate meanings

The only people in our lives we need to be justified by is God. We were justified when we were saved, but we still have the rest of our lives to live in accordance to what the scriptures have laid out for us to live by. In essence, how can I say that I have a believe and faith in God if my lifestyle still reflects my old sinful life?

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Romans 8:11-13

This here does say that you will die if you do bad things. There is a big difference between a striving Christian who falls and somebody who keeps sin in their lives not wanting to repent.

Even though we have been saved by Jesus we are still debtors to the fact that we have to repent of our sins and this is not an overnight job. It takes a working at it. I.e. I used to smoke and it took me a long time with a lot of diligence to quit, but I eventually overcame it. Our lives before God are the same. Just because we got saved does not take away all the desires of sin out of our hearts overnight. It takes a life time of work to put away the desires of this flesh.

The faith that James is referring to is that if we claim to have faith in God then we need to show it by what we do in our lives in putting away the carnal desires and acts.

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Ezekiel 18:24

This is not for every time we sin. It is a mindset for man to consider that all the righteousness that I do will not balance the scale for me the day that I turn to live in sin. This is to let us know that sin is very serious with God. Here is an example -

For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. 2 Timothy 4:10

Demas made the choice to leave Christianity for the love of this present world and the scriptures tell us that all that in the world is the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. So, with all of the work that Demas did in traveling with Paul spreading the gospel will not be mentioned because he chose to turn his back on God and live a life of sin. So, our deeds can condemn us when they are not or righteousness.

What "works" is being defined by in the bible is our obedience to the scriptures. When we repent of our sins and live by the fruits of the Spirit we are doing the works that define our faith. When we are told through the scriptures to, "Work out your salvation in fear and trembling" is referring to the putting away of the sins of our flesh. The repenting of the things that the scriptures tell us not to do. When we quit lying, stealing, cheating, committing adultery/fornication, evil speaking, etc. we are doing the "works" that we are told to do and this is what James speaks of that our "faith without works is dead".

Works in and of themselves don't save us, but they are a great part of our Christianity. Eph 2:10 states that we were created unto good works and ordained that we should walk in them.

How refreshing!

Finally, someone who understands.

[deut31:12]

One thing that people are missing the fact that "baptism/baptize/baptized" is mentioned in the bible over 75 times and it is being taught that this is not a necessary part of one's salvation. Is not all of the doctrine that has been laid out for us in the gospel an necessary part of our salvation?

The problem is that the baptism is not a part of the gospel. It is our response to the gospel in obedience to the command of Christ. The gospel does not teach that a person must be baptized to be saved.

What people are doing is taking some scriptures and countering other scriptures with them.

No, I am actually working off of the Scriptures peolpe like present me, and I am putting them back in their proper context in accordance with the intent of the authors.

John the baptist paved the way of the coming of the Savior by preaching the "baptism of repentance", Jesus himself was baptized, all of the Apostles were baptized, Jesus last commission to his Apostles was to go into all the earth preaching and baptizing them saying, "whoever believes and is baptized will be saved", the Apostles on the day of Pentecost told thousands to, "repent and be baptized for the remission of their sin", all through the book of Acts they are baptizing people in water, In the book of Romans it is referred to as an operation that cuts away the old man and we are raised again in the newness of life, we are to have faith in that operation, we are told, "All that have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ", we are told that, "baptism doth also now save us", etc., but after reading all of these things I ask two questions. One - Why would we not want to be baptized? Two - know that all of these are in the scriptures would we think that it doesn't really matter if we do it or not and on most cases choose not to do it?

The problem here again is your misapplication of Scripture. Being baptized into Christ is not water immersion. It is a work of the Holy Spirit at the moment of conversion. Peter references baptism, but it is in connection with a clear conscience. Peter makes it clear that water immersion does not cleanse the flesh (which is not referring to the physical body, but of our sinful nature).

ALL, that means ALL scripture is given to us for the salvation of our souls, but people are deeming this not viable to our salvation.

Actually that is not what the Bible says about why Scripture is given to us.

Eph 2:8-9 teaches that we are saved by faith and not of works. The only place in the bible where it has the words "faith" and "only" in it is in James where it says we are NOT saved by faith only. It says our faith without works is dead. The works that we do to show our faith is our obedience in the gospel of Christ. If we really and truly believe in power of God we will do what he tells us to do.

YOu need to read your Bible. James did not say we are not saved by faith only. James was not even talking about salvation. James chapter 2 is addressing the emptiness of a profession of faith without accompanying actions. James' issue was "show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by what I do. The object James has in mind is that our works justifying us and our profession of faith in the sight of men. James said, we are not justified (before men) by faith only. In other words, it is your actions that prove and justify your claim to be Christian. James makes the point that like love, faith is operative in nature and must be evidenced by good deeds that demonstrate salvation.

Our belief and faith are to motivate us to obey the scriptures, not use faith and belief as a way to countermand obeying the scriptures

No one is saying we don't have to be obedient. We are saying that obedience is/or should be the fruit of salvation. Our works should not be done out of a motive to earn salvation, but rather they should be the product and outgrowth of the salvation we already have.

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him Hebrews 5:9

If all we have to do is have faith in God to be saved then why are told in scriptures like this to study to show ourselves approved to God?

That command was given to Christians pertaining to how they should live out their salvation. It was not offered as a means of earning salvation. We study the Word because we are saved and because God has placed that desire in our heart.

There's no "faith only" here. The whole man before God is to fear him and keep his commandments. Baptism is a commandment. Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all those who obey him and we do this by obeying the scriptures, which are his commandments, which also includes baptism. How can we say that we are obeying God and the gospel of Christ when we choose to omit things baptism?

Copy and paste where one person has said we should omit baptism, or that it is not necessary to obey the commandment to be baptized.

You are incorrect in your responses as always.

[Guest yod]

So how many of the International Church of Christ cult have now joined our boards?

Usually they travel in pack of 10 to 15. I'm only counting 5 so far...did I miss some?

[RebekahDavid]

One thing that people are missing the fact that "baptism/baptize/baptized" is mentioned in the bible over 75 times and it is being taught that this is not a necessary part of one's salvation. Is not all of the doctrine that has been laid out for us in the gospel an necessary part of our salvation?

The problem is that the baptism is not a part of the gospel. It is our response to the gospel in obedience to the command of Christ. The gospel does not teach that a person must be baptized to be saved.

What people are doing is taking some scriptures and countering other scriptures with them.

No, I am actually working off of the Scriptures peolpe like present me, and I am putting them back in their proper context in accordance with the intent of the authors.

John the baptist paved the way of the coming of the Savior by preaching the "baptism of repentance", Jesus himself was baptized, all of the Apostles were baptized, Jesus last commission to his Apostles was to go into all the earth preaching and baptizing them saying, "whoever believes and is baptized will be saved", the Apostles on the day of Pentecost told thousands to, "repent and be baptized for the remission of their sin", all through the book of Acts they are baptizing people in water, In the book of Romans it is referred to as an operation that cuts away the old man and we are raised again in the newness of life, we are to have faith in that operation, we are told, "All that have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ", we are told that, "baptism doth also now save us", etc., but after reading all of these things I ask two questions. One - Why would we not want to be baptized? Two - know that all of these are in the scriptures would we think that it doesn't really matter if we do it or not and on most cases choose not to do it?

The problem here again is your misapplication of Scripture. Being baptized into Christ is not water immersion. It is a work of the Holy Spirit at the moment of conversion. Peter references baptism, but it is in connection with a clear conscience. Peter makes it clear that water immersion does not cleanse the flesh (which is not referring to the physical body, but of our sinful nature).

ALL, that means ALL scripture is given to us for the salvation of our souls, but people are deeming this not viable to our salvation.

Actually that is not what the Bible says about why Scripture is given to us.

Eph 2:8-9 teaches that we are saved by faith and not of works. The only place in the bible where it has the words "faith" and "only" in it is in James where it says we are NOT saved by faith only. It says our faith without works is dead. The works that we do to show our faith is our obedience in the gospel of Christ. If we really and truly believe in power of God we will do what he tells us to do.

YOu need to read your Bible. James did not say we are not saved by faith only. James was not even talking about salvation. James chapter 2 is addressing the emptiness of a profession of faith without accompanying actions. James' issue was "show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by what I do. The object James has in mind is that our works justifying us and our profession of faith in the sight of men. James said, we are not justified (before men) by faith only. In other words, it is your actions that prove and justify your claim to be Christian. James makes the point that like love, faith is operative in nature and must be evidenced by good deeds that demonstrate salvation.

Our belief and faith are to motivate us to obey the scriptures, not use faith and belief as a way to countermand obeying the scriptures

No one is saying we don't have to be obedient. We are saying that obedience is/or should be the fruit of salvation. Our works should not be done out of a motive to earn salvation, but rather they should be the product and outgrowth of the salvation we already have.

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him Hebrews 5:9

If all we have to do is have faith in God to be saved then why are told in scriptures like this to study to show ourselves approved to God?

That command was given to Christians pertaining to how they should live out their salvation. It was not offered as a means of earning salvation. We study the Word because we are saved and because God has placed that desire in our heart.

There's no "faith only" here. The whole man before God is to fear him and keep his commandments. Baptism is a commandment. Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all those who obey him and we do this by obeying the scriptures, which are his commandments, which also includes baptism. How can we say that we are obeying God and the gospel of Christ when we choose to omit things baptism?

Copy and paste where one person has said we should omit baptism, or that it is not necessary to obey the commandment to be baptized.

You are incorrect in your responses as always.

i too would like to see you copy and paste this instead of posting your opinion. thanks.

[CSLewis]

International church of Christ is a cult? Never heard that one before

[eis]

So how many of the International Church of Christ cult have now joined our boards?

Usually they travel in pack of 10 to 15. I'm only counting 5 so far...did I miss some?

yod,

Hatefulness is unbecoming a Christian.