"Baptism doth now save you" and is not a work!

[eis]

As I recall the Lord went about baptizing, not He but his disciples were doing the baptism, yet he gave the command to baptize.

The Lord baptized . . . no wait, that wasn't Him doing it!

Question: were the people baptized by Jesus' disciples saved under the New Covenant when they were baptized then - before Jesus died and rose again?

nebula,

I knew there was indication somewhere about Him baptizing. Look at this:

John 3:22-24

22 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and they were coming and were being baptized.

NASB

Now, if you follow through to John 4 you see that he makes a parenthetical correction.

Just a minor point.

[eis]

The Holy Spirit will never give His gifts to anyone who is not saved.

And where is this noted? This is your deduction, but this one case was different than all conversions found in Acts. Was it a sign to Peter & those of circumcision?

All through out the Gospels you will see that one has to be saved BEFORE they can receive the Holy Spirit. If you wish, I can, and will, provide you with scripture.

How about those in Samaria where Philip preached, but Peter and John had to go lay hands on those who had believed & baptized? What do you make of that?

Baptism is in obedience to scripture, as we have been saying all along, but it is not required for salvation. The proof is seen in many places, especially in Acts 10. Peter preached the Gospel and they accepted it and believed unto salvation. After acceptance, they were filled with the Holy Spirit. Upon this proof, they were then baptized. Again, it is very plain to see that one does not have to be baptized to be saved, but needs to be first saved to be baptized.

I really don't see where there can be any confusion in this, but I would be very willing to discuss this further with you so you can have a proper understanding.

In His Love,

Alan

Alan, thank you for the offer. If it is so plain, then why is there disagreement? How about you, do you deny that baptism is for forgiveness of sins? If yes, explain why Peter said to repent and be baptized for forgiveness of sins.

[Matthitjah]

Bless you eis,

Do you deny that baptism is for the forgiveness of sins?

Yes, Baptism in water isn't for the forgiveness of sins. It's a public identification with Christ.

John's Baptism was to prepare the way. It was an acknowledgment that one was a sinner and in need of the atoning Grace of God through Christ Jesus.

Where doe we find in Scripture that repentance washes away sins?

Please don't take comments out of context. It's not polite and it's disingenuous.

I said the repentance does and the profession of Christ in relation to the assertion that you believe that the washing does. Conviction of sins leads to a profession of sin which leads us to forgiveness through the atonement of Christ Jesus Blood.

Peace,

Dave

[Guest shiloh357]

And Peter's response while filled with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost he commands:

Acts 2:38-41

38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself." 40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!" 41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and there were added that day about three thousand souls. NASB

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Apr 21 2010, 09:41 AM)

Again, no doctrine is being established here. There is no doctrinal discussion of baptism as being necessary salvation. Furthermore, Greek scholars are not unified in how this passage is to be understood.

How do you know no doctrine is established here?

1. Because this is narrative passage, not an epistle.

2. Peter's audience is limited to Jews. He is not addressing the full body of Christ.

3. This is not a teaching passage. There are no doctrinal principles being espoused.

3. Peter is not teaching. He is exhorting. Doctrine is teaching, thus this is not a doctrinal passage.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Apr 21 2010, 09:41 AM)

None of which are references to water immersion. We are baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit, not by water immersion.

We disagree that this is not water, I agree that the Holy Spirit is involved in the baptism of believers. You just conveniently choose to see it as a different baptism. If it were baptism of the Holy Spirit it would be clarified.

It is clarified. Water immersion is never connected to someone being placed into Christ. The ONLY person who baptizes us into Christ is the Holy Spirit. Water immersion is a testimony that one is in deed in Christ. Paul was considered a Christian BEFORE he was immersed in water.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Apr 21 2010, 09:41 AM)

Anyone grab verses from different parts of the Bbile and string them together like lights on a christmas tree and make the Bible appear to say whatever they want it to say. The fact that you cannnot produce a genuine doctrinal treatment of baptism as necessary salvation demonstrates the impotency of your position and why it has no place in authentic, New Testament Christianity.

You are in denial.

You are the one who cannot provide a sound biblical doctrinal defense of your position.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Apr 21 2010, 09:41 AM)

Doing something and performing a "work" are not the same thing.

Hmmm, maybe we are getting somewhere after all.

A work produces a result or an effect. Faith is simiply the conduit by which salvation is received.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Apr 21 2010, 09:41 AM)

We are not in denial of any the importance of obedience. We simply reject your nonChristian assertion that water immersion is required for salvation.

Do you deny that baptism is for the forgiveness of sins? See Acts 2:38 again if you need a reference.

That passage does not say that baptism brings forgiveness of sins. If it does, then just get immersed in water and you don't need Jesus at all. Your view borders on idolatry, as it makes water immersion the object of faith.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Apr 21 2010, 09:41 AM)

It would not matter if it were a work or not. To claim that anything beyond grace through faith in the work of Christ on the cross is necessary for salvation is a false gospel and must be rejected by genuine Christians.

Genuine Christians will have entered through the appropriate door.

The door is Christ. Unfortunately, you haver decided to place your faith in your own works and in water immersion and have opted to skip Christ.

[eis]

Bless you eis,

Do you deny that baptism is for the forgiveness of sins?

Yes, Baptism in water isn't for the forgiveness of sins. It's a public identification with Christ.

John's Baptism was to prepare the way. It was an acknowledgment that one was a sinner and in need of the atoning Grace of God through Christ Jesus.

Where doe we find in Scripture that repentance washes away sins?

Please don't take comments out of context. It's not polite and it's disingenuous.

I said the repentance does and the profession of Christ in relation to the assertion that you believe that the washing does. Conviction of sins leads to a profession of sin which leads us to forgiveness through the atonement of Christ Jesus Blood.

Peace,

Dave

Dave,

I have no intention of being disingenuous or impolite, I apologize.

Your comment was:

"The Water itself has no power to wash away the sins. The repentance does and the profession of Christ, the bold public display, charecterizes the work that has been done."

I agree that the "water" has no power in and of itself to wash away sins. I have made that very clear on multiple occasions.

I focused on "the repentance does" because it stood out, but lets use your conjunctioal structure and examine this further:

The repentance does and the profession of Christ, the bold public display, charecterizes the work that has been done."

I am going to rest on repentance meaning just that; "the profession of Christ" to be confession; "the bold public display" is baptism.

If I follow your thought, you are saying that repentance and confession wash away the sins. Baptism witnesses to everyone that you are already saved.

Is this correct?

As far as denying that baptism is for forgiveness of sins, then Peter was wrong? I fully understand the lack of agreement by "Greek scholars" in terms of what this means, but I invite you to take into account the post I made earlier here regarding the use of the Greek word eis.

[eis]

And Peter's response while filled with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost he commands:

Acts 2:38-41

38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself." 40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!" 41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and there were added that day about three thousand souls. NASB

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Apr 21 2010, 09:41 AM)

Again, no doctrine is being established here. There is no doctrinal discussion of baptism as being necessary salvation. Furthermore, Greek scholars are not unified in how this passage is to be understood.

How do you know no doctrine is established here?

1. Because this is narrative passage, not an epistle.

2. Peter's audience is limited to Jews. He is not addressing the full body of Christ.

3. This is not a teaching passage. There are no doctrinal principles being espoused.

3. Peter is not teaching. He is exhorting. Doctrine is teaching, thus this is not a doctrinal passage.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Apr 21 2010, 09:41 AM)

None of which are references to water immersion. We are baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit, not by water immersion.

We disagree that this is not water, I agree that the Holy Spirit is involved in the baptism of believers. You just conveniently choose to see it as a different baptism. If it were baptism of the Holy Spirit it would be clarified.

It is clarified. Water immersion is never connected to someone being placed into Christ. The ONLY person who baptizes us into Christ is the Holy Spirit. Water immersion is a testimony that one is in deed in Christ. Paul was considered a Christian BEFORE he was immersed in water.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Apr 21 2010, 09:41 AM)

Anyone grab verses from different parts of the Bbile and string them together like lights on a christmas tree and make the Bible appear to say whatever they want it to say. The fact that you cannnot produce a genuine doctrinal treatment of baptism as necessary salvation demonstrates the impotency of your position and why it has no place in authentic, New Testament Christianity.

You are in denial.

You are the one who cannot provide a sound biblical doctrinal defense of your position.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Apr 21 2010, 09:41 AM)

Doing something and performing a "work" are not the same thing.

Hmmm, maybe we are getting somewhere after all.

A work produces a result or an effect. Faith is simiply the conduit by which salvation is received.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Apr 21 2010, 09:41 AM)

We are not in denial of any the importance of obedience. We simply reject your nonChristian assertion that water immersion is required for salvation.

Do you deny that baptism is for the forgiveness of sins? See Acts 2:38 again if you need a reference.

That passage does not say that baptism brings forgiveness of sins. If it does, then just get immersed in water and you don't need Jesus at all. Your view borders on idolatry, as it makes water immersion the object of faith.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Apr 21 2010, 09:41 AM)

It would not matter if it were a work or not. To claim that anything beyond grace through faith in the work of Christ on the cross is necessary for salvation is a false gospel and must be rejected by genuine Christians.

Genuine Christians will have entered through the appropriate door.

The door is Christ. Unfortunately, you haver decided to place your faith in your own works and in water immersion and have opted to skip Christ.

Our discussion remains circular. You consider yourself the authority, and me the idol worshiper. I disagree with your hermeneutic. Examples of how the church came to being are as doctrinal as epistles. I am at peace to disagree with you.

[Guest shiloh357]

Examples of how the church came to being are as doctrinal as epistles.

No, they are not. If they were, then we would have to follow the early church's example on every point. The book of Acts is simply the story of how the early Church began. It is not an instruction manual. Its purpose is not to set up doctrine for all people for all time. It is nothing more than an historical, narrative account.

I disagree with your hermeneutic.

You don't know hermeneutics from a hole in the ground.

[eis]

Examples of how the church came to being are as doctrinal as epistles.

No, they are not. If they were, then we would have to follow the early church's example on every point. The book of Acts is simply the story of how the early Church began. It is not an instruction manual. Its purpose is not to set up doctrine for all people for all time. It is nothing more than an historical, narrative account.

So you say.

I disagree with your hermeneutic.

You don't know hermeneutics from a hole in the ground.

Personal attacks do not strengthen you case or the false doctrine you love so deeply.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

If I follow your thought, you are saying that repentance and confession wash away the sins. Baptism witnesses to everyone that you are already saved.

Is this correct?

Yes, in stating this I am agreeing with Scriptural mandate;

Ro

[eis]

Grace to you,

If I follow your thought, you are saying that repentance and confession wash away the sins. Baptism witnesses to everyone that you are already saved.

Is this correct?

Yes, in stating this I am agreeing with Scriptural mandate;

Ro