wyguy Posted April 26, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 373 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 3,331 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 71 Days Won: 10 Joined: 10/15/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/24/1965 Share Posted April 26, 2010 God has a perfect and permissive aspect to His will. That was my whole point. Because God has a permissive aspect to His will, (allowing things to happen) then nothing truly can happen against His will. Looks to me we all agree and any friction here is just semantics...... no? It's like saying, God ALLOWS things to happen against His will... a paradox? Kind of obvious He is in control Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted April 26, 2010 Share Posted April 26, 2010 God has a perfect and permissive aspect to His will. That was my whole point. Because God has a permissive aspect to His will, (allowing things to happen) then nothing truly can happen against His will. Looks to me we all agree and any friction here is just semantics...... no? It's like saying, God ALLOWS things to happen against His will... a paradox? Kind of obvious He is in control No, it is not exactly semantics. You said that peace will be achieved if God wants it. If peace is not achieved, you indicated that God did not want it. That is not reflective of permission but of perfect will. Your initial statement was about what God wants to happen, not about what God permits to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyguy Posted April 26, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 373 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 3,331 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 71 Days Won: 10 Joined: 10/15/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/24/1965 Share Posted April 26, 2010 God giving permission for bad things to happen is not going against His will. The Bible says He works ALL things together for good. So even the bad stuff is within God's will. To go against God's will is like God sending Satan to the lake of fire and Satan thumbing his nose and sayin' he isn't going and skipping off into the sunset. It ain't gonna happen. All things are within the will of God and nothing happens against His will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hupo Posted April 27, 2010 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,055 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 18 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/19/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/12/1944 Share Posted April 27, 2010 God has a perfect and permissive aspect to His will. That was my whole point. Because God has a permissive aspect to His will, (allowing things to happen) then nothing truly can happen against His will. Looks to me we all agree and any friction here is just semantics...... no? It's like saying, God ALLOWS things to happen against His will... a paradox? Kind of obvious He is in control No, it is not exactly semantics. You said that peace will be achieved if God wants it. If peace is not achieved, you indicated that God did not want it. That is not reflective of permission but of perfect will. Your initial statement was about what God wants to happen, not about what God permits to happen. My English rhetorics are not perfect, what can I say? let me re-say it If peace will happen it is God's will. If peace does not happen, it is still God's will that it WILL, but above that HE allows us free choice that allows for no-peace God's will is set for peace. God's will is also set for our free choice and that free choice allows for no-peace God always wants peace. God allows for no-peace through our free choice. Shilo, we both agree that God is in control, don't we? I hope I haven't made it any more complicated..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted April 27, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted April 27, 2010 I feel like I'm reading a spiritual version of two scientists arguing quantum physics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted April 27, 2010 Share Posted April 27, 2010 God giving permission for bad things to happen is not going against His will. The Bible says He works ALL things together for good. So even the bad stuff is within God's will. That is not exactly accurate. If what you were saying were true, no one would ever live outside the will of God. By your logic, a sinner rejecting salvation would be in the will of God, and that is plainly absurd. The will of God, objectively speaking is perfect. God permits man to choose to do the opposite, but murder is never within the will of God. Rape is never within the will of God and terrorism is never in the will of God. As for the verse out of Romans 8, It says that all things work togther for good to them that love God and are called according to his purposes. This verse is limited to the experience of the believer in terms of what follows after v. 28. In fact, the line of thought in chapter 8 of Romans pertains to the security of the believer and is not meant to be understood as an explanation of why bad things happen. So in effect, it is one of those verses that are often misused and misapplied to an issue that the author did not have in sight. To go against God's will is like God sending Satan to the lake of fire and Satan thumbing his nose and sayin' he isn't going and skipping off into the sunset. It ain't gonna happen.No, it isn't like that at all. All things are within the will of God and nothing happens against His will. So every child that is abused/molested, every person who was murdered, every act of bigotry, oppression, terrorism, abuse, etc. is within the Will of God? Tell that nonsense to all of the Jewish mothers in Israel who have lost children on buses and playgrounds, that their child died because it was will of God to see them murdered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hupo Posted April 27, 2010 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,055 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 18 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/19/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/12/1944 Share Posted April 27, 2010 God giving permission for bad things to happen is not going against His will. The Bible says He works ALL things together for good. So even the bad stuff is within God's will. That is not exactly accurate. If what you were saying were true, no one would ever live outside the will of God. By your logic, a sinner rejecting salvation would be in the will of God, and that is plainly absurd. The will of God, objectively speaking is perfect. God permits man to choose to do the opposite, but murder is never within the will of God. Rape is never within the will of God and terrorism is never in the will of God. As for the verse out of Romans 8, It says that all things work togther for good to them that love God and are called according to his purposes. This verse is limited to the experience of the believer in terms of what follows after v. 28. In fact, the line of thought in chapter 8 of Romans pertains to the security of the believer and is not meant to be understood as an explanation of why bad things happen. So in effect, it is one of those verses that are often misused and misapplied to an issue that the author did not have in sight. To go against God's will is like God sending Satan to the lake of fire and Satan thumbing his nose and sayin' he isn't going and skipping off into the sunset. It ain't gonna happen.No, it isn't like that at all. All things are within the will of God and nothing happens against His will. So every child that is abused/molested, every person who was murdered, every act of bigotry, oppression, terrorism, abuse, etc. is within the Will of God? Tell that nonsense to all of the Jewish mothers in Israel who have lost children on buses and playgrounds, that their child died because it was will of God to see them murdered. I agree with you Shilo, God's will is NOT: to have people molested abused murdered and blown up in buses It is OUR free choice that is the cause of all these horrible things But the only reason we have Free choice is because God gave it to us, and I think that is what wyguy is saying If that is not the case, then God is not in control over everything.......... How do you see it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted April 27, 2010 Share Posted April 27, 2010 I agree with you Shilo, God's will is NOT: to have people molested abused murdered and blown up in buses It is OUR free choice that is the cause of all these horrible things But the only reason we have Free choice is because God gave it to us, and I think that is what wyguy is saying If that is not the case, then God is not in control over everything.......... How do you see it? God is in control and is sovereign over the whole earth and everyone and everything in it. Not everything happens according to the will of God, though. God allows things to happen that He does not will to occur, as I have previously demonstrated. Terrorism in Israel is just one example of what God allows to happen. My point was simply that we cannot say, "if God doesn't want it to happen it won't happen." If that were true, there would be no crime, injustice, oppression, poverty, sickness & disease, sin, or unrighteousness of any kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hupo Posted April 27, 2010 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,055 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 18 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/19/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/12/1944 Share Posted April 27, 2010 I agree with you Shilo, God's will is NOT: to have people molested abused murdered and blown up in buses It is OUR free choice that is the cause of all these horrible things But the only reason we have Free choice is because God gave it to us, and I think that is what wyguy is saying If that is not the case, then God is not in control over everything.......... How do you see it? God is in control and is sovereign over the whole earth and everyone and everything in it. Not everything happens according to the will of God, though. God allows things to happen that He does not will to occur, as I have previously demonstrated. Terrorism in Israel is just one example of what God allows to happen. My point was simply that we cannot say, "if God doesn't want it to happen it won't happen." If that were true, there would be no crime, injustice, oppression, poverty, sickness & disease, sin, or unrighteousness of any kind. Wording it like that, I have to agree with you, Yet my feeling is wyguy means it much the way you do, but now ....I think I'll give it a rest Thanks Shilo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyguy Posted April 27, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 373 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 3,331 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 71 Days Won: 10 Joined: 10/15/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/24/1965 Share Posted April 27, 2010 So every child that is abused/molested, every person who was murdered, every act of bigotry, oppression, terrorism, abuse, etc. is within the Will of God? Tell that nonsense to all of the Jewish mothers in Israel who have lost children on buses and playgrounds, that their child died because it was will of God to see them murdered. As hard as it sounds, good can come from even the most evil of things. There are some that have been molested that found in God's grace the means to forgive. Christians have been murdered by the millions - and their blood has grown the church. Even acts of terrorism and abuse God has used to bring hard-hearted people to the cross. The Holocaust itself brought about a change in the hearts of nations to finally allow the Jewish State to be born. Just because it seems pointless in our eyes, does not mean God doesn't have the end worked out through those means. Like C.S. Lewis once wrote: "God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks to us in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: It is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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