Matthitjah Posted May 26, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 26, 2010 Why stay out of it? It's fostered a grand debate and here in America it's critical. There's a report that spending has reached 90% of our GDP out this morning. This is unsustainable. Yet, the Government is still spending. One of two things will happen and probably both. There will be a revolt by the citizenry, which has already begun albeit peacefully, and the economy will crash much like Greece. Some of us believe that this is by design to force a Sea Change in the way that America operates. It was promised during the lat Election. I'm just not sure why some folks missed it. Americans will have none of it. Watch and see. I've said it before and I'm going to say it again. Socialism wll result in more folks being poor and more folks dying, whether it's Socialized Medicine or just plain Ole' Socialized Govrenance. Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~candice~ Posted May 26, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 955 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 11,318 Content Per Day: 1.89 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 33 Joined: 12/16/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted May 26, 2010 Well Dave... despite appearances, I do see the slippery slope of dependency that is happening, and I can join with you in mourning when that leads. So I am quite happy to remove most of those programs, with the exception of welfare. The liberal in me just can't bear to see these people fending for themselves if I am not satisfied that there are programs (funded voluntarily) that can meet that need. To remove the government socialist programs already in existence, will put pressure on the church and on the family, etc. In order for the church and society to bear this new load (that the government is currently bearing) would require a mending in the decay of families and society. However, I suspect that by leaving this pressure on the government, instead of the church and society and family, we are taking away that pressure that might bring about healing. The time for idealism is over. We can't go from here straight back to capitalism (your idea of ideal ) there must be a gradual clawing back, a destruction of the dependency that has festered into society, but this is going to be a slow slow progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted May 26, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 26, 2010 Well Dave... despite appearances, I do see the slippery slope of dependency that is happening, and I can join with you in mourning when that leads. So I am quite happy to remove most of those programs, with the exception of welfare. The liberal in me just can't bear to see these people fending for themselves if I am not satisfied that there are programs (funded voluntarily) that can meet that need. To remove the government socialist programs already in existence, will put pressure on the church and on the family, etc. In order for the church and society to bear this new load (that the government is currently bearing) would require a mending in the decay of families and society. However, I suspect that by leaving this pressure on the government, instead of the church and society and family, we are taking away that pressure that might bring about healing. The time for idealism is over. We can't go from here straight back to capitalism (your idea of ideal ) there must be a gradual clawing back, a destruction of the dependency that has festered into society, but this is going to be a slow slow progress. No one is advocating the complete destruction of all social welfare programs though. You know how some folks teach a kid to swim? They throw them in the water. My daughter is absolutely brilliant. She's been top 3 of her class at Middle School the last two years. This year she is getting an award. Next year we are placing her in honors classes. She thinks this is unfair because it will require more work. Yes, it will and yes it may seem unfair. However a lump of coal never becomes a diamond unless heat and pressure are involved and this is Scriptural too. God never let's us remain where we are if we are in a relationship with Him. he is always bringing us to the next task, the next temptation is allowed, the fire is turned up in the smelter and the dross is scooped away thus further refining the Silver. It's Scriptural dear sister. If there were never the trial or the tree we would remain globs of jelly with no purpose or use. He's molding us, He's shaping us, He's saving us. We don't Save people by sparing them the trial or protecting them from it. That's like saying, "This person has cancer, let's leave it alone to metastisize's because we don't want to get the individual stirred up or anything." Radical treatment is called for. Elsewise the patient will find itself dead and in much further distress. Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted May 26, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted May 26, 2010 The American dream is not so different to the Australian dream.Own a home,maybe an investment property,a nice car,the occasional holiday....etc. I wonder though if our dreams should be more focused on charity than our own desires. The treasures in heaven sorta stuff? You know, we are talking apples and oranges here. OK, consider this. A group of teenagers want to go on a missions trip. Instead of relying solely on donations, they decide to work for the money they need, whether through becoming employed or by doing yard work and other such activities for people. In which economy will they be more likely to succeed in obtaining their needed funds - Capitalism or Socialism? Have you seen the movie The Blind Side? It's based on the true story of Michael Oher, a homeless teen who was taken in and adopted by Sean and Leigh Anne Tuohy. Do you suppose the Christian family would have been able to adopt him, pay for a tutor, and take care of his needs had they not been well-off? For that matter, would the private school where they became acquainted had been in existence in a Socialistic society? Social welfare systems are by no means perfect and will never replace true charity.But they do help fill the gap left by us. The problem with social welfare systems is that they have a way of trapping you. Most people receiving welfare would rather stay in the system rather than making sacrifices needed to improve their lives and get out of the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted May 26, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted May 26, 2010 To remove the government socialist programs already in existence, will put pressure on the church and on the family, etc. In order for the church and society to bear this new load (that the government is currently bearing) would require a mending in the decay of families and society. Actually, the family in America was stronger before all these Socialistic programs we have were in existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~candice~ Posted May 26, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 955 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 11,318 Content Per Day: 1.89 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 33 Joined: 12/16/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted May 26, 2010 Social welfare systems are by no means perfect and will never replace true charity.But they do help fill the gap left by us. The problem with social welfare systems is that they have a way of trapping you. Most people receiving welfare would rather stay in the system rather than making sacrifices needed to improve their lives and get out of the system. Well if the system wasn't abused, only those who were in genuine (permenent) need would be using these systems. These people are trapped by their need anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~candice~ Posted May 26, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 955 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 11,318 Content Per Day: 1.89 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 33 Joined: 12/16/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted May 26, 2010 To remove the government socialist programs already in existence, will put pressure on the church and on the family, etc. In order for the church and society to bear this new load (that the government is currently bearing) would require a mending in the decay of families and society. Actually, the family in America was stronger before all these Socialistic programs we have were in existence. I agree. Which is why I think the family needs to be strengthened again in order for those needs to be met in the absence of socialism or welfare. The question is - can the family be restored to the point needed to support this need, before the return of the Lord? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 26, 2010 Share Posted May 26, 2010 I'm not defending it. I merely pointed out the strawman (misrepresentation of socialism) that has occurred in this thread in order to espouse capitalism. And I told Dave I'd say out of this . Sorry! I don't see any strawman being erected. Socialism has not been misrepresented at all. It iIS inferior to capitalism. That is why, in part, people flock to immigrate to the US and not France or any other socialistic nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 26, 2010 Share Posted May 26, 2010 The problem with social welfare systems is that they have a way of trapping you. Most people receiving welfare would rather stay in the system rather than making sacrifices needed to improve their lives and get out of the system. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted May 26, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted May 26, 2010 Well if the system wasn't abused, only those who were in genuine (permenent) need would be using these systems. Yeah, which is also a form of greed, is it not? These people are trapped by their need anyway. Not necessarily. Teenage girls get pregnant just so that they can get a higher welfare check. I'm serious! And it's actually their attitude that traps them. As Shiloh pointed out, most of these people know how to assert themselves to get their welfare money. Why don't they assert themselves with the same vigor to advance their education? Get a better job? Do what's needed to get promoted? A lot of people in this land are in need who really don't need to be in need - or shouldn't be in need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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