~candice~ Posted May 26, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 955 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 11,318 Content Per Day: 1.89 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 33 Joined: 12/16/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted May 26, 2010 Well if the system wasn't abused, only those who were in genuine (permenent) need would be using these systems. These people are trapped by their need anyway. Yeah, which is also a form of greed, is it not? No! Is it greed that a widow who cant support themselves, is supported by others? Or an orphan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~candice~ Posted May 26, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 955 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 11,318 Content Per Day: 1.89 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 33 Joined: 12/16/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted May 26, 2010 You edited your post after I replied to it. Let me clarify... Social welfare systems are by no means perfect and will never replace true charity.But they do help fill the gap left by us. The problem with social welfare systems is that they have a way of trapping you. Most people receiving welfare would rather stay in the system rather than making sacrifices needed to improve their lives and get out of the system. Well if the system wasn't abused, only those who were in genuine (permenent) need would be using these systems. These people are trapped by their need anyway. I am only talking about genuine need... Well if the system wasn't abused, only those who were in genuine (permenent) need would be using these systems. Yeah, which is also a form of greed, is it not? These people are trapped by their need anyway. Not necessarily. Teenage girls get pregnant just so that they can get a higher welfare check. I'm serious! And it's actually their attitude that traps them. As Shiloh pointed out, most of these people know how to assert themselves to get their welfare money. Why don't they assert themselves with the same vigor to advance their education? Get a better job? Do what's needed to get promoted? A lot of people in this land are in need who really don't need to be in need - or shouldn't be in need. Because I wasn't talking about welfare frauds anyway... Many of those in genuine need are trapped in their need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 26, 2010 Share Posted May 26, 2010 A lot of people in this land are in need who really don't need to be in need - or shouldn't be in need. Someone once said that the United States has the richest poor people in the world. The welfare system in the US needs a general overhaul and there needs to be either a better enforcement of laws already in place, or we need new regulations. One reason some our states like California are hurting so is because illegial aliens live off of our welfare and they send a good portion of that money back home to their families who do not live in the US. We are just throwing around money like candy at a parade and it just can't continue this way. Welfare was originally supposed to be a safety net. The idea was to help you while you got back on your feet and got a job and were self-sufficient. Today, it is used as a entitlement that people just want to live off of indefinitely. It has become an enabler for lazy people who all too happy to live off of the back of the working taxpayers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 26, 2010 Share Posted May 26, 2010 Many of those in genuine need are trapped in their need. Not in the US. Poverty is not a trap over here. We offer all kinds of vocational and educlation programs and help to anyone who really wants to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and make something of themselves. Life is hard and it will beat you to the floor and keep you there if you let it. If you choose to let your situation define you, then you desere whatever you get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted May 26, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted May 26, 2010 Well if the system wasn't abused, only those who were in genuine (permenent) need would be using these systems. These people are trapped by their need anyway. Yeah, which is also a form of greed, is it not? No! You posted before I edited. I separated out a part: Well if the system wasn't abused, How would you describe those that abuse the system? Is it greed that a widow who cant support themselves, is supported by others? Or an orphan? Most widows in the US have jobs they can support themselves with. And orphans are put into foster care. I haven't heard of the foster care system being abused. Have you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted May 26, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted May 26, 2010 Many of those in genuine need are trapped in their need. And the system traps them even further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted May 26, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted May 26, 2010 It is pure capitalism that relies SOLELY on the goodness of man's heart to give to the poor, because it opposes any and all legislation or governance that provides welfare for those in genuine need. This is the reason why pure capitalism at it's heart will not work. It is greed manifested. I was thinking about this. I disagree that Capitalism is "greed manifested." Capitalism relies on cash-flow. Cash-flow means you give out what you take in. Wealthy people spend their money like crazy. Now you can argue that their spending is selfish, but does the Indie musician care what motivates a person to buy his music, or that he's able to generate an income because people are buying it? Is it greed to build a nest egg with which to pay for your children's college education? Or take a man who's skilled at building and repairing homes. Is it greed for him to buy unsellable homes, fix them up nice, and re-sell them for a good profit? Here's the thing, welfare is handing a hungry man a fish again and again and again. Welfare to work right depends on the man not being slothful, to only survive on the provision for a short time until he is able to fish for himself. Do you suppose that the majority of people on welfare are not slothful with regards to their provision? 2 Thes. 3:10 - For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order : if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either. Welfare encourages slothfulness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted May 26, 2010 Share Posted May 26, 2010 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hr.jr. Posted May 26, 2010 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 615 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/21/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 26, 2010 Andy, why do you believe Socialism helps the poor? Looking at Socialist governmental systems, it hardly seems to help the poor at all. Do you see it actually delivering the goods it promises? In Capitalism, sure you run the risk of the rick squandering the poor, but a poor man has the potential to rise above his circumstances and produce his own wealth and thus get out of the poverty cycle. This is "the American dream," and many people have achieved this time and time again. In Socialism, who can improve their lives? How? If you produce more, you only lose more. I'm not defending socialism. I'm defending socialist welfare systems. I support these because althought I freely acknowledge that it isn't the most fair or equitable approach, it is the only way I can see at the moment that provides for those in genuine need. My last few posts shouldn't be taken as a defense of real socialism (wealth distribution), I'm just pointing that pure capitalism (which I oppose) does rely on the goodness of man's heart. Our socialistic welfare system does re-distribute wealth. This country was founded on the freedoms to have life, liberty, and to pursue happiness. Our system of government was not founded to provide a means of support to those who are un-willing to work. If you do not work, you do not eat. That is a biblical principal we should apply in our government. I have no problem with very short term assistance to those who fall into misfortune that is beyond their control. I have no problem with income for those who are truly disabled. We must cease rewarding pure laziness and immorality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hr.jr. Posted May 26, 2010 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 615 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/21/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 26, 2010 I'm not defending it. I merely pointed out the strawman (misrepresentation of socialism) that has occurred in this thread in order to espouse capitalism. And I told Dave I'd say out of this . Sorry! There is no "strwawman" here. I bet if you went to the socialist nations of Cuba and North Korea, you might find that capitalism is not as evil as many portray it to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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