Was AD 70 the Parousia?

[PGA]

Peter thanks for trying to answer my question,but the answer you gave seems to spiritualize things that are meant to be literal. I believe in a literal second coming of Christ and a literal resurrection of the dead at which time the born again will receive literal immortal bodies to rule and reign with the Lord.

How do you know all these things you mention are literal, especially the Second Coming? What verses are you thinking of that point to a literal second coming?

Where was Jesus going and where is Jesus now? He said He was going to His Father and that He would come and take them (the disciples) to be where He was (John 14:1-3). Where did Paul say his citizenship was (Phil. 3:20)? What were all the Old Covenant saints looking for (Hebrews 11:16)? Where did they go (Hebrews 12:22)? Are we to fix our eyes on the physical or that which is not seen? How did God come in the OT because Jesus said in Matthew 16:26-27 that He was coming in the same manner/glory that the Father came in the OT.

http://asiteforthelord.com/id15.html

Peter

Peter, I take it you don't believe that Jesus is coming back in a literal body 2nd coming. We are told that Jesus will return in the manner in which He ascended into heaven.

And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven."

(Act 1:9-11)

If the parousia occured in 70 AD and we are living in the millennial reign now, if the kind of rampant wickedness we see in our world and the continuing violence and hostility toward those who follow Christ is representative of the conditions of the millennial reign of Christ, I can only conclude that the millennial reign of Christ is the biggest failure in human history.

Hi Shiloh,

What I see is God being true to His word. I see the heaven and earth of Old Covenant Israel being removed with the new and better covenant. I see an end to death and sin in the Lord Jesus Christ and a heavenly kingdom that Christians on earth partake in. I see those who are with the Lord in heaven as receiving all the blessings of Christ and those promises for all who believe when we die physically. Spiritually I believe we are already united with Christ in the new birth, thus are members of His kingdom already, for He is Lord and King!

As for Acts 1:9-11, please see the parts I highlighted in your post above. I don't see this as the same coming as in Revelation1:7 for instance. This coming in Acts 1 is to a small, select group. In Revelation1:7 I believe it is to the whole nation of Israel.

Revelation 1:7

New International Version (NIV)

⁷ “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”^[a]

and “every eye will see him,

even those who pierced him”;

and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”^[b]

So shall it be! Amen.

Footnotes:

1. Revelation 1:7 Daniel 7:13
   
2. Revelation 1:7 Zech. 12:10
   

This passage is a quote from Zechariah 12:10. Here is the context of the passage expanded on:

Zechariah 12:1-12

New International Version (NIV)

Jerusalem’s Enemies to Be Destroyed

12 A prophecy: The word of the Lord concerning Israel.

The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares: ² “I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. ³ On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. ⁴ On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. ⁵ Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’

⁶ “On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.

⁷ “The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. ⁸ On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. ⁹ On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.

Mourning for the One They Pierced

¹⁰ “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit^[a] of grace and supplication. They will look on^[b] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. ¹¹ On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. ¹² The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives,

Footnotes:

1. Zechariah 12:10 Or the Spirit
   
2. Zechariah 12:10 Or to
   

Do you get the idea? It is Israel who is doing the mourning, the piercing, and it is Israel who is receiving the judgment, but unlike Acts 1:9-11, it is the whole of Israel. I can give you a few passages in which Jesus brings out the very sentiment of these verses about weeping and wailing of widows, but I do not choose to look them up because it is late.

Notice in Revelation 1:7 that the NIV translates the 'land' mentioned in Zechariah 12:10 as the earth, which some are in the habit of associating with every man woman and child on the face of the earth, although it is true that people over the whole earth mourn because of Him, it can also be argued that the land mentioned is the land of Israel and when you take the quote in context I believe this is exactly what is being referenced.

Peter

[Guest shiloh357]

I see the heaven and earth of Old Covenant Israel being removed with the new and better covenant.

That may be what YOU see, but that is not what the Bible says. You are trying to impose YOUR views on to Scripture. The Bible never relates heaven and earth to Old Covenant Israel. And the Bible never refers to Israel in that terminology either. You appear to be making up theological terms as you go.

I see an end to death and sin in the Lord Jesus Christ and a heavenly kingdom that Christians on earth partake in.

But the Bible doesn't teach that. Sin and death have not yet come to an end. Yes those in heaven now are free from sin but that is not fulfillment of the prophecy. The end of sin and death is not simply dying and going to heaven, at least on in Scripture.

I see those who are with the Lord in heaven as receiving all the blessings of Christ and those promises for all who believe when we die physically. Spiritually I believe we are already united with Christ in the new birth, thus are members of His kingdom already, for He is Lord and King!

The problem here is that the Kingdom of God has both heavenly and earthlly referents. The Kingdom of God is spiritual, but is also going to exist in physical form on earth according to Scripture. That is where Preterism fails. The Bible doesn't relate the Kingdom to the spiritual realm alone, but also to the natural realm which God will one day renovate when Heaven and Earth will dwell together forever in the New Heavens and New Earth.

The problem in your theology is that while it is very "preterist," It is not biblical. If this is the full and final esablishment of the Kingdom of God, if this is the "new heavens and new earth," It is the biggest failure in human history.

As for Acts 1:9-11, please see the parts I highlighted in your post above. I don't see this as the same coming as in Revelation1:7 for instance. This coming in Acts 1 is to a small, select group. In Revelation1:7 I believe it is to the whole nation of Israel.

That is some fancy theologial gymnaistics you are going with. The problem is that there is no point in history where Jesus came back to the disciples in bodily form. You are trying to make up something that never happened.

One of the big problems I see with Preterism is with the incessent need to revise history and change the core meanings of texts so that they can pencil their theological views into the Bible. Acts 1:19-11 is fulfilled in Rev. 19 when Jesus returns in bodky form and the whole world sees Him. From there, He will establish His 1,000 year earthly Kingdom.

[Montana Marv]

I wonder how many full perterests take communion. For if they do they take it for the wrong reason.

1 Cor 11:23-26 - For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you; The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, This is my body, which is for you, do this in remembrance of me. In the same way after supper, he took the cup saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it in rememberance of me. For when ever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lords death until he comes.

We as believers in Christ continue to do what has been passed down to us for generations; Proclaiming the Lord Jesus Christ until he returns.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Guest shiloh357]

I wonder how many full perterests take communion. For if they do they take it for the wrong reason.

1 Cor 11:23-26 - For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you; The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, This is my body, which is for you, do this in remembrance of me. In the same way after supper, he took the cup saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it in rememberance of me. For when ever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lords death until he comes.

We as believers in Christ continue to do what has been passed down to us for generations; Proclaiming the Lord Jesus Christ until he returns.

In Christ

Montana Marv

That is a good point, Marv.

[PGA]

I see the heaven and earth of Old Covenant Israel being removed with the new and better covenant.

That may be what YOU see, but that is not what the Bible says. You are trying to impose YOUR views on to Scripture. The Bible never relates heaven and earth to Old Covenant Israel. And the Bible never refers to Israel in that terminology either. You appear to be making up theological terms as you go.

I see an end to death and sin in the Lord Jesus Christ and a heavenly kingdom that Christians on earth partake in.

But the Bible doesn't teach that. Sin and death have not yet come to an end. Yes those in heaven now are free from sin but that is not fulfillment of the prophecy. The end of sin and death is not simply dying and going to heaven, at least on in Scripture.

I see those who are with the Lord in heaven as receiving all the blessings of Christ and those promises for all who believe when we die physically. Spiritually I believe we are already united with Christ in the new birth, thus are members of His kingdom already, for He is Lord and King!

The problem here is that the Kingdom of God has both heavenly and earthlly referents. The Kingdom of God is spiritual, but is also going to exist in physical form on earth according to Scripture. That is where Preterism fails. The Bible doesn't relate the Kingdom to the spiritual realm alone, but also to the natural realm which God will one day renovate when Heaven and Earth will dwell together forever in the New Heavens and New Earth.

The problem in your theology is that while it is very "preterist," It is not biblical. If this is the full and final esablishment of the Kingdom of God, if this is the "new heavens and new earth," It is the biggest failure in human history.

As for Acts 1:9-11, please see the parts I highlighted in your post above. I don't see this as the same coming as in Revelation1:7 for instance. This coming in Acts 1 is to a small, select group. In Revelation1:7 I believe it is to the whole nation of Israel.

That is some fancy theologial gymnaistics you are going with. The problem is that there is no point in history where Jesus came back to the disciples in bodily form. You are trying to make up something that never happened.

One of the big problems I see with Preterism is with the incessent need to revise history and change the core meanings of texts so that they can pencil their theological views into the Bible. Acts 1:19-11 is fulfilled in Rev. 19 when Jesus returns in bodky form and the whole world sees Him. From there, He will establish His 1,000 year earthly Kingdom.

Hi Shiloh,

Thanks for your return post. You have given me lots to reply to but I'm working this weekend so it will probably be after Christmas that I send a reply. I would like to respond to each section of your post so I may do that in individual posts. That way it will be more manageable, although this is probably going to create lots of other tangents. (^8

Peter

[PGA]

I see the heaven and earth of Old Covenant Israel being removed with the new and better covenant. -Me

That may be what YOU see, but that is not what the Bible says. You are trying to impose YOUR views on to Scripture. The Bible never relates heaven and earth to Old Covenant Israel. And the Bible never refers to Israel in that terminology either. You appear to be making up theological terms as you go. -Shiloh

More on this statement of yours later but for now just a few quick comments.

Actually I think that futurists tend to read more into God's word than it actually says. For instance, over and over again Jesus says 'this generation' in which He came to in the 1st century and many read into this another generation 20 plus centuries removed. The same can be said for terms like 'the last day', 'last hour', 'end of the age', and so on. When I bring up points, such as Matthew 10 in relation to Matthew 24, the post and context is totally ignored and removed from 1st century relevance by ignoring my points. I spend hours gladly explaining some of the significance of Hebrews and the differences between the two covenants, the spiritual and physical differences, the heavenly and the earthly and all I get is silence. I do the same with many other passages of Scripture, like Daniel 9:24-27 in which the 70 weeks are decreed for Daniel's people to put an end of sin and bring in an everlasting righteousness, and then Revelation 18 which concerns itself with Babylon the Great City - Jerusalem. Again silence - virtually no comments on any of these, just accusations.

If you read the context of Acts 1:9-11 and Revelation 1:7 do you not see any distinctions between the two texts. They both speak of Jesus' coming and yet one is concerned with Jesus addressing those who are there watching Him go into the clouds, whereas the other is addressing a much larger group of people. Sure, it could be the same event, but regardless, futurists try to make this into a global phenom. The quote from Revelation 1:7 is taken from Zechariah 12:10 and its context addresses Israel, not the whole world. The Roman army was made up of people from all over the known world of their day and it came against Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

Revelation is apocalyptic literature in which there are many symbols and types. You just can't interpret everything literally. God's word interprets itself and over and over in the NT we see the type explained, such as in Galatians 4 - the two covenants, two Jerusalem's, two peoples, two women, two seeds of people - slave and free.

'This generation' is not 'that generation'. IMO, futurists are trying to fit their theology into the 21st century and ignoring what the Author is actually saying, or who the primary audience of His address is. There are just too many glaring examples of this.

P.S. Shiloh, my next post in answer to your last post may be after Christmas, depending on time.

Best wishes to you and your family, that it may be filled with the Saviors love!

Peter

[gdemoss]

Peter, your absolutely correct about what I did when I used the example given in Timothy for what you are mistakenly doing here. Foreshadowing did not end in the OT. This that was done by these two has been repeated as a tactic by Satan for nearly 2000 years. Many have fallen away due to such teachings. Christ is coming and it won't be long now.

[PGA]

If you read the context of Acts 1:9-11 and Revelation 1:7 do you not see any distinctions between the two texts. They both speak of Jesus' coming and yet one is concerned with Jesus addressing those who are there watching Him go into the clouds, whereas the other is addressing a much larger group of people. Sure, it could be the same event, but regardless, futurists try to make this into a global phenom. The quote from Revelation 1:7 is taken from Zechariah 12:10 and its context addresses Israel, not the whole world.

Hi Peter,

Acts 1:9-11

9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Revelation 1:7

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Mattew 24

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Yes they are the same event ,

If you take into account of how far technology has advanced just as prophets had foretold it easy to understand ...

Have you ever watched live news events or live sporting events that are physically happening in another country or another part of earth? Happens all the time , routine everyday for TV broadcasters transmitting live from all over the world.

The events happening in Israel , the wars and destruction going on at that time will be center stage of attention with live news coverage with dozens of news stations from all over the world be airing this climatic event .

Nearly everyone on earth knows about how Israel is being constantly attacked , When the worst of the war is at climatic point it will be on every TV broadcasting network , we now have Satellite TV , Internet News cell phones with unlimited internet data streams , cable TV....While the climatic time of war is taking place is exactly when Jesus returns coming on the clouds to save Israel , ALL the news networks that are broadcasting live news from Israel they will see Jesus coming on the clouds coming down from heaven. Do you really think that the seeing Jesus coming down from heaven is not more newsworthy than war and people dying?

Every news camera will likely be focused on Jesus coming and broadcasting this SPECTACULAR news event all over the planet globally and thus everyone on earth will be able to see Jesus coming to earth

For this to be global is just another day in the world of TV Journalism and Live Broadcasting

Zechariah 14

¹¹ It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.

If all this took place in 70AD ,,is Jerusalem will be secure now?

no it is not

When did you say that the plague that Zech 14 :12 happened ?

Can you not see this dispels the myth of preterist view...when you pick and choose scriptures and avoid the rest of scripture it becomes fallacy that does not match all of the Word of God

Zechariah 14

12 This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.

13 On that day people will be stricken by the Lord with great panic. They will seize each other by the hand and attack one another.

14 Judah too will fight at Jerusalem. The wealth of all the surrounding nations will be collected—great quantities of gold and silver and clothing.

15 A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps.

Hi Danielzk,

My questions are falling on deaf ears. Who were the they of Acts 1:9? How big a group were they? Whose sight was He hidden from? Who was He speaking to? Do you see what you are guilty of doing? You are lifting an interpretation out of the text that it does not imply. You take the Author's words and you remove them from context and project them into the 21st century.

These people, in Acts 1, these apostles, were looking for Jesus to restore the kingdom to Israel and in Acts 2, on the day of Pentecost we see Jesus already sitting on David's throne (meaning He has received the kingdom spoken of in Isaiah 9:6), we also see godly Jews (possibly from every tribe under heaven) gathered in Jerusalem and Peter explaining to them that the prophecy of Joel that was forecast to happen in the last days was taking place before their eyes.

Here is Acts 1 in context:

Acts 1:1-12

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

Jesus Taken Up Into Heaven

1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach ² until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. ³ After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. ⁴ On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. ⁵ For John baptized with^[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

⁶ So when they met together, they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

⁷ He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. ⁸ But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

⁹ After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

¹⁰ They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. ¹¹ “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Matthias Chosen to Replace Judas

¹² Then they returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day’s walk^[b] from the city.

Footnotes:

1. Acts 1:5 Or in
   
2. Acts 1:12 That is, about 3/4 mile (about 1,100 meters)
   

A few things for you to notice here:

1) The men were apostles,

2) He showed Himself to these men, not to all the tribes of the land or the whole of Israel (or do you translate the passage in Revelation 1 as all the people of the earth, which can remove it nicely from addressing the Jews/Israel alone to addressing everyone?)

3) He spoke to them concerning the kingdom,

4) He tells them that when they receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon them and they will be witnesses of Him to the ends of the earth (i.e., in other words, they are going to proclaim the Gospel all over the earth, and this is in fact confirmed in various passages of Scripture),

5) Jesus is taken up before their very eyes,

6) Two angels address them as 'Men of Galilee', and tells them that Jesus will again appear in the same way they have seen Him go. That statement can be interpreted with various connotations. One way of interpreting this is that as He disappeared before the small band of believers He will again appear before them in like manner, as before a small band of believers. Revelation 1:7 is not before a small group of people but concerns the whole of Israel as seeing Him, those who pierced Him. The apostles, as believers, loved the Lord and were not the ones who arranged to have Him crucified. The text in Acts addresses these men as 'Men of Galilee', not every eye, although every eye could include them, but not as those who pierced Him.

7) The text speaks of them, this small group, as seeing Him come in the like manner to which they saw Him go. Right there alone, it seems to me that the text is exclusive not inclusive in that it addresses them alone, not the whole of Israel or the whole of the earth, whatever you take that phrase to mean.

My wife wants me to make supper so I'll address Revelation 1:7 later.

Peter

[gdemoss]

Acts 1:11 and Rev 1:7. The argument that bases itself upon the 'who' of who is being spoken too is baseless. Though the apostles were the ones spoken too in Acts, they were not told 'when' this event would happen, nor if 'they' would be the ones who would see the return. The Revelation text is found in the introductory statements of the book. Every eye shall see him, even they that pierced him because all will be resurrected and judged. Once again, it is a simple explanation. Why cannot this be so? It can, and I believe it is.

[PGA]

Hi Danielzk,

Concerning Zechariah 14, I believe I have answered your posts on this verse in a number of different posts, whether directly or indirectly, since your first mention of Zechariah 14 in Post # 242. I answered that I did not see Zechariah 14 as speaking of the Israel of today and a nuclear war because the Israel of old is not related to the Israel of today and they did not have nuclear weapons in those days; days in which horses and camels were the means of warfare and travel (Post 248).

You confuse the two Israels. In Post # 271 you said that Israel would be reborn on May 14, 1948. Where did Ezekiel or any prophet ever give the date of Israel's rebirth. Again you read into the Scriptures something that is not said. In Post # 284 you again asked for proof that events in Zechariah 14 had already happened. I answered in Post # 286 by stating that the end of the age can only refer to OT Israel's age because the age Jesus was in and talking about was the age of the OT. That age specifically related to the temple and the disciples. Jesus had not yet gone to the cross to atone for sin and bring in an everlasting righteousness, or put an end to wickedness by judgment and by the New Covenant in His blood. In turn, this end of the age all related to Daniel 9:24-27, which again it talking about OT Israel - Daniel's people. The Israel now in existence does not have a temple or priesthood or genealogies, therefore it is not OT Israel - Daniel's people. That people were scattered and absorbed into the nations in A.D. 70. Show me one person who can trace his bloodline to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel that is alive today? In OT times God brought judgment on His people when they forsook His covenant, just like He said He would. The greatest judgment God every brought on this people was in A.D. 70 when He ended the covenant He made with them. Again, if you do not think so then show me the temple, priesthood, sacrificial system that atoned for their sins? It does not exist. Matthew 5:17-18 has been fulfilled in which Jesus said He would fulfill/accomplish all righteousness before the slightest letter of the Law or Prophets was removed.

In Posts # 304, # 306, # 312 you brought up Zechariah 14 again. My most thorough response to date was Post # 365 in which I addressed it to Gary. In that response I explained the significance of the term 'on that day' as referring to Zechariah 12:10, which could only refer to OT Israel, since they pierced Him during the times of the Old Covenant age when He lived on this earth. The term 'on that day' is used various times in the Book of Zechariah and I would argue that they can only be referring to the same time period - that day, which refers to 1st century Israel.

Peter