On no, not another threadon Acts 2:38!

[UncleAbee]

I'm going to reply to this with James 2:22 - "You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;"

In this scripture the formula is faith added with works = the perfection of faith. The perfection of faith = salvation. Your equation adds faith & salvation. James's equation adds faith and works. We need faith to do the works. The works that faith produces are judged by God. What is hard for most to understand is that you work because you are saved and you work to be saved. Both are true. You are saved when you become a Christian; you are being saved as you work by faith in Christ; you are eternally saved in the end by the grace of God.

And I shall reply with this: For what does the Scripture say? who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 2 Timothy 1:9 NKJV

You see works are removed from the formula. Salvation is BY grace, THROUGH faith. ANY works done prior to salvation are in vain. Works are a result of a person that has experienced salvation exercising their faith, that is how their faith is made perfect.

Noah was saved after he built the ark. I'll let you tell Noah that building the ark had zero to do with his salvation. 2 Tim 1:9 is saying that we are not the "authors of salvation" not that there is nothing for us to do to receive the salvation that Christ authored. Salvation did not come to the world because of something you or I did. Therefore it is not according to "our works."

You said "Works are a result of a person that has experienced salvation exercising their faith, that is how their faith is made perfect." This is not what James says in James 2:22 - "You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;" James says that faith combined with works produces salvation. Salvation = faith perfected. James 2:24 says - "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." Everything God gave (faith, works, grace) is necessary for your salvation.

[UncleAbee]

Salvation has always had conditions tied to it. We have to do something to receive what Christ brought. The gift of salvation being free means that it is freely available. It doesn't mean there aren't some conditions that need to be met to get this free gift.

Yes, there are conditions, but conditions and works are not the same thing. I have to receive the gift, obviously. That is one of those conditions. However, the point is that there is no merit that one must attain in order to be saved. I cannot work my way to God. There are no works I can perform that will help me to attain salvation.

The world commonly thinks that if I have to do anything to get the free gift then it is not free.

Not really. If someone offers me $1 Million as a gift, I have to receive it. I have to take it to the bank and deposit it. I did something to receive the gift of $1 Million, but I did not earn it or work for it.

One day this guy's car had run out of gas up the street from where I live. Me and some neighbors were outside talking. He came through and asked if anyone had some gas in a can he could put in his car. I went under my house and got my gas can and gave him all I had in it. He filled his container up, went back up the hill, put it in his car, and drove off. Was the gas I gave him free to him? Sure it was. But; 1) He had to ask for it; 2) He had to fill up his can with it; 3) He had to walk back up the hill; 4) He had to put the gas in his car. Did any of that work he had to do make the gas any less free? Of course not. I made the gas available. I paid for it. He just received and used what I gave him. That is the same thing you are doing with the free gift of Christ. What you do to receive it makes it no less free. Really, God gave you salvation and the plan to receive the salvation. It all came from God so you aren't earning anything nor did you think of anything. You are just doing as told.

But that analogy falls short where baptism is concerned. You are adding to salvation in that particular case. Making baptism necessary for salvation would mean that the blood of Jesus is insufficient, and more work is necessary.

This is what Jesus is talking about in John 10:28-29. Once you become a child of God you are forever one. Nothing can make you not a child of God. No one can take away what God has given you. No one can take your Christian status away. If you fall into sin you are still a Christian and can be redeemed. You are never not a CHristian no matter what state you fall into. No one can take the HG away but you can choose not to exercise what has been given you. If you choose not to exercise it then you are still a Christian. You are just going to end up in hell because you did not continue in the faith. Christians can end up in hell too.

This is completely wrong.

John 10: 28-29 says that those who are Christ's shall never perish. Hell is the place for those who have perished into eternal separation and spiritual death. No one who has the Holy Spirit, who is born again, can enter into hell. I don't know where you get that nonsense, but you are off the mark in more ways than I can count. God will discipline his children, but that does not include sending them to hell, and I defy you to prove otherwise.

Oh really:

Romans 11:17-22 - "17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

In Romans 11 Paul is writing to Christians. How do I know this? In Romans 1:7 Paul says - "to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints:" Actuall some of them were attempting to mix the old and new law. God chose the Israelites. He rejected His chosen ones because of their disbelief. If rejected them don't you think He will reject you who were adopted in (Saints) for your disbelief. Look at vs 21. Vs 22 says we must "continue in his kindness." That right there is proof that we have to work towards our salvation. We are saved when we become Christians, being saved as we work in Christ, and ultimately saved in the end by grace.

[EricH]

You said "Works are a result of a person that has experienced salvation exercising their faith, that is how their faith is made perfect." This is not what James says in James 2:22 - "You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;" James says that faith combined with works produces salvation. Salvation = faith perfected. James 2:24 says - "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." Everything God gave (faith, works, grace) is necessary for your salvation.

James did not say that faith combined with works produces salvation. Here is what the passage says in context:

In the same way faith, if it doesn't have works, is dead by itself. But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without works, and I will show you faith from my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. The demons also believe-- and they shudder. Foolish man! Are you willing to learn that faith without works is useless? Wasn't Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?You see that faith was active together with his works, and by works, faith was perfected. So the Scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness, and he was called God's friend. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way, wasn't Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by a different route?J ust as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

(James 2:17-26 HCSB)

James is not "contrasting" faith and works in this passage. He is describing the difference between a faith that results in works and a faith that does not result in works. True saving faith will always express itself in works. It is not that those works save. A crucial mistake you have made in your interpretation is in your understansing of James use of the work "justify" (dikaioo in the Greek). There are several ways the verb can be used. James uses it in the declarative sense (this was common in the OT). Where as Paul used it in the sense of a person's coming to faith (being justified by faith alone), James used it to describe the "end result of faith" (that the works demonstrate legitimate or true faith).

This is echoed by Paul in Epheisians 2:8-10

For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift-- not from works, so that no one can boast. For we are His creation-- created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:8-10 HCSB)

Salvation (the intiial declaration by God that the sinners sins are forgiven and they are his cihild) comes through faith alone. Works are a byproduct of that faith. If a persons faith does not produce works, one should question it. But the works them selves to not play a causative function in salvation. They play a demonstrative one. So Abraham was save by works not in thr sense that they played a role in his being declared righteous (that would be a contradiction of Romans 4:3 where "belief" or "faith" is described as the causative agent alone.

Jame affirms this by choolsing to use the word teleioo or perfected to describe how works and faith are related. It means to perfect or bring to maturity (which happens over a life-time). Abrahams initial belief (which cause God to declare him as righteous (Romans 4:3) was matured through the series of obedience tests that he experienced over his life-time. These tests did not "save" him more. They actually matured his faith (sanctification).

[Guest]

Believe

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Joel 2:32

Or Not

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

Your Choice

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:38

Believe It

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. Joshua 24:15

And Be Blessed Beloved

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. Job 19:25-27

Love, Joe

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Ephesians 2:8

[e lansing]

I read your example of the x-mas gift. Even our children we give gifts have to do something to get a gift. Don't they have to be good children. Would you buy your son a gift if he defied you constantly day in and day out. No. They have to meet conditions to get x-mas gifts. Do those conditions make the gifts you give any less free? Your children are always your children no matter what they do. This doesn't mean that they can't defy you to the point that you put them out the house. Even when you put them out the house they are still your children and can be redeemed. This is what Jesus is talking about in John 10:28-29. Once you become a child of God you are forever one. Nothing can make you not a child of God. No one can take away what God has given you. No one can take your Christian status away. If you fall into sin you are still a Christian and can be redeemed. You are never not a CHristian no matter what state you fall into. No one can take the HG away but you can choose not to exercise what has been given you. If you choose not to exercise it then you are still a Christian. You are just going to end up in hell because you did not continue in the faith. Christians can end up in hell too.

This is a clear example of ES-OSAS DRIVEL!!!! See how he holds on to the son analogy and tries to apply it to the spiritual reality. It ends in total DRIVEL! Christians end up in Hell!!!!!!!!!!! And No this not what John 10:28,29 is talking about. It is true that no outside force can remove someone from Gods Kingdom. However, this this not mean that the person in the Kingdom cannot choose to leave under his own will. If a person chooses to leave this is sin, and that sin will remove you from from the KIngdom of God. Prodigal son is a clear example of this.

e

[HitmanR2]

I'm going to reply to this with James 2:22 - "You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;"

In this scripture the formula is faith added with works = the perfection of faith. The perfection of faith = salvation. Your equation adds faith & salvation. James's equation adds faith and works. We need faith to do the works. The works that faith produces are judged by God. What is hard for most to understand is that you work because you are saved and you work to be saved. Both are true. You are saved when you become a Christian; you are being saved as you work by faith in Christ; you are eternally saved in the end by the grace of God.

And I shall reply with this: For what does the Scripture say? who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 2 Timothy 1:9 NKJV

You see works are removed from the formula. Salvation is BY grace, THROUGH faith. ANY works done prior to salvation are in vain. Works are a result of a person that has experienced salvation exercising their faith, that is how their faith is made perfect.

Noah was saved after he built the ark. I'll let you tell Noah that building the ark had zero to do with his salvation. 2 Tim 1:9 is saying that we are not the "authors of salvation" not that there is nothing for us to do to receive the salvation that Christ authored. Salvation did not come to the world because of something you or I did. Therefore it is not according to "our works."

You said "Works are a result of a person that has experienced salvation exercising their faith, that is how their faith is made perfect." This is not what James says in James 2:22 - "You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;" James says that faith combined with works produces salvation. Salvation = faith perfected. James 2:24 says - "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." Everything God gave (faith, works, grace) is necessary for your salvation.

Noah was saved prior to his building the Ark, or else he would never have done what God commanded. (Do lost people usually adhere to God's commands? NO. Or else they would believe on His Son and be saved.)

Paul is saying Faith is the only catalyst that can react to God's grace and produce salvation. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Epesians 2:8-10 KJV

The works ONLY come from us, AFTER God has done His work in us.

[Guest]

Noah

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. Hebrews 11:7

[biblos]

Alright, guys, there's an issue that has bothered me for some time; maybe someone here can offer an insight...

Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Here's the text of acts 2:38. Some people in here have suggested that the word "for" (Greek: eis) causes the sentence to mean "because your sins are already forgiven."

But if this is the case, then...at what point were they forgiven? I don't know, what do you think? As far as I can tell, up this point, the people did nothing and nothing happened to them. Given the broader teaching of the Bible, in both testaments, it seems strange to suggest that repentance should follow salvation.

Any takers?

People ought to follow the Bible rather than fancying themselves as being able to correct it.

The fact that their is such a thing as you've brought out in this thread makes me ill.

I beleve you are quite correct, however, let me point out that Cornelius in Acts 10 receives the Holy Spirit BEFORE Baptism as the first indication that Baptism is not necessary for Salvation but is a wittness once Saved.

Second: If Baptism were truly necessary for Salvation. When a Gentile asks a inspired Apostle led by the Holy Spirit what one must do to be saved. Are you saying that the Holy Spirit merely forgot to mention Baptism? what view of God does that put forward? one that is Abscent minded at best.

Yet in Acts 16 the Philippian Jailer a gentile asks Paul what must I do to be saved and the anwser is Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Baptism is never mentioned in connection with salvation when the full question is asked. Either God is forgetful, or its not a part of salvation but an act to obey

once your saved.

[HitmanR2]

I beleve you are quite correct, however, let me point out that Cornelius in Acts 10 receives the Holy Spirit BEFORE Baptism as the first indication that Baptism is not necessary for Salvation but is a wittness once Saved.

Second: If Baptism were truly necessary for Salvation. When a Gentile asks a inspired Apostle led by the Holy Spirit what one must do to be saved. Are you saying that the Holy Spirit merely forgot to mention Baptism? what view of God does that put forward? one that is Abscent minded at best.

Yet in Acts 16 the Philippian Jailer a gentile asks Paul what must I do to be saved and the anwser is Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Baptism is never mentioned in connection with salvation when the full question is asked. Either God is forgetful, or its not a part of salvation but an act to obey

once your saved.

I agree.

[EricH]

This is a clear example of ES-OSAS DRIVEL!!!!

e

Please take note of the terms of serice. Calling people's opinions drivel is a personal attack. Please refrain