Nearness of the Rapture

[wyguy]

These two items really stuck out for me:

initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they patiently continue in good works and obedience to the end

That's nothing but "works righteousness" and it's an abomination to God. That's like giving a friend a gift and then telling them they can only keep it if they wash your car every week for life. God says He gives us eternal life as a free gift. If that gift can be taken away:

1) It was never actually a gift.

2) It was never eternal.

3) It was never free.

Philippians 1:6 says "Being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus"

Meaning Jesus started the santification process at salvation and HE (not YOU) will continue it until it is completed at His coming. It's HIS works, not YOURS.

1 Corinthians 1:8 says: "HE will keep you strong to the END, so that you will be blameless on the Day of our lord Jesus Christ."

Again, HE (Jesus) is our strength, not YOURSELF. And HE (Jesus) will keep us strong until the END - not YOURSELF.

And as far as God is concerned, we are already seated with Christ in Heaven: "And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the Heavenly realms in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:6)

And the Bible says our inheritance can NEVER perish and is kept for us in Heaven. "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In His great mercy He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that CAN NEVER PERISH, spoil or fade - KEPT IN HEAVEN FOR YOU, who are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD through faith to salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5)

And that inheritance is GUARANTEED with the SEAL of the Holy Spirit: "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked with a SEAL, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a DEPOSIT GUARANTEEING OUR INHERITANCE until the redemption of those who are God's possession - to the praise of His glory." (Ephesians 1:13-14)

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were SEALED for the day of redemption." (Ephesians 4:30)

As we are sealed for the day of redemption (Christ's second coming) if believers did not have eternal security, the sealing could not truly be unto the day of redemption, but ONLY to the day of sinning, apostacy, or disbelief.

In John 5:24 Jesus says: "He who hears my word and believes in Him who sent me has eternal life, and SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT, but has passed from death into life."

YOU say they CAN come into judgment and lose eternal life.

Whatever God does is forever (Eccl. 3:14). Salvation is initiated by God (John 15:16, Romans 8:29-30). We were predestined by Him for salvation (Eph. 1:4-5). Would God choose us, mark us out, call us into salvation and then abandon us? No. God's salvation is ETERNAL.

No sin, no failure, or weakness on our part can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:35-39).

Our problem before God before we were saved was a legal one. we had broken God's laws by our sin and had thus incurred the Law's righteous judgment. According to the Law of God, where transgression of the Law is, death must take place (Romans 6:23). It is not a matter of God loving us, overlooking our sins and forgetting about the Law's judgment. If God were to do this, His very Throne would topple. God is bound by His own Law to judge sin. Since God desired to save us and since we could not pay the debt ourselves, He, in His mercy, decided to do it Himself. Jesus died that substitutionary death on the cross to pay that sin debt. His death, being reckoned by God AS OURS, was acceptable to God. Now when we believe in Christ, His death is counted in God's sight AS OUR OWN. Thus, our debt of sin is righteously paid, and we are saved.

Now, can God take back this salvation which Christ purchased in His own blood? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Since the debt was FULLY PAID, for God to demand it AGAIN from us would be unrighteous! The same righteousness which formerly called for our condemnation now calls for our justification. Thus, the Bible declares that when God saves us, He shows forth His righteousness (Romans 1:16-17; 3:25-26).

When we were saved, we not only received something, we also became something. We became children of God, born of his eternal life (John 1:12-13). A human father may be able to take back a gift he has given to his child, but he can never take back the human life that has been imparted. Although the child may misbehave, the child is still the father's. In the same way we are God's children. Although we have many weaknesses and may require His discipline, our sins and weaknesses cannot change the fact that we are His children. The life we received by our second birth is the ETERNAL life, the INDESTRUCTIBLE life, the LIFE OF GOD, the life that can NEVER die, Once we are born again, we can never be "un-born."

Christ himself PROMISED to keep us, uphold us and NEVER leave us. Christ NEVER fails to accomplish what He pledges. Jesus said, "Him who comes to me I SHALL BY NO MEANS CAST OUT" (John 6:37).

YOU say if we sin, we are "cast out." YOU say if we fail to repent of a sin, we are "cast out." YOU say if we fail to do good works, we are "cast out." If what YOU say is true, then Jesus is a LIAR.

The Bible says: "I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him for that day." (2 Timothy 1:12).

You say it is by works that keeps us saved - the Bible says it is JESUS who keeps us saved.

To say it is we ourselves that maintain our salvation is to strip God of glory and lessons His remarkable offering of grace and mercy.

All of the righteousness of Christ has been put into our accounts. God always looks at us through the righteousness of Christ that has been given to us. (The formal doctrine is called the "imputation of the righteousness of Christ). For a believer to somehow lose his salvation would demand a TOTAL reversal and an undoing of ALL the proceding works of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

When the Father looks upon us, He sees His son Jesus. That's why we can be called:

Holy (Hebrews 10:10, 13:12)

Righteous (Romans 3:22)

Perfect (Hebrews 10:14)

Saints (Philippians 4:21-22, 1 Corinthians 1:2)

A citizen of Heaven (Philippians 3:20)

And we have:

NO condemnation (Romans 8:1)

NO separation from God's love (Romans 8:39)

SURE hope of resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:22)

A PROMISE of life (2 Timothy 1:1)

Words of eternal life (John 6:68)

You are simply trying to EARN the maintaining of salvation by works. You need to open yourself up to the truth that it is JESUS ALONE who will be glorified for keeping you saved - not Jesus AND you. God will NOT share the credit with you.

Also, even if they do continue in good works, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to repent from every sin they might commit to the end

I see. So, all of you sins were not covered by the blood and forgiven at the cross?

That's like saying you keep repenting over and over your whole life, but in the split second before you get run over by a truck and killed you have a sinful thought and go straight to hell.

Is THAT what you are saying?

The Bible says ALL of our sins (not just the ones we committed before we were saved) have been forgiven. Past, present and future.

"The blood of Jesus Christ, God's son, cleanses us from ALL sin." (1 John 1:7)

"But now He has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you HOLY in His sight, WITHOUT BLEMISH and FREE FROM ACCUSATION" (Colossians 1:22).

"Therefore, there is now NO CONDEMNATION for those in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1)

When a person becomes a Christian, ALL his sins have been forgiven and PAID IN FULL by Christ. There remains NO further payment that can be made for them, NO further expiation required.

It's a good thing Paul did not die at the moment he wrote:

"We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do

[lekh l'kha]

These two items really stuck out for me:

initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they patiently continue in good works and obedience to the end

That's nothing but "works righteousness" and it's an abomination to God. That's like giving a friend a gift and then telling them they can only keep it if they wash your car every week for life. God says He gives us eternal life as a free gift. If that gift can be taken away:

1) It was never actually a gift.

2) It was never eternal.

3) It was never free.

Philippians 1:6 says "Being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus"

Meaning Jesus started the santification process at salvation and HE (not YOU) will continue it until it is completed at His coming. It's HIS works, not YOURS.

1 Corinthians 1:8 says: "HE will keep you strong to the END, so that you will be blameless on the Day of our lord Jesus Christ."

Again, HE (Jesus) is our strength, not YOURSELF. And HE (Jesus) will keep us strong until the END - not YOURSELF.

And as far as God is concerned, we are already seated with Christ in Heaven: "And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the Heavenly realms in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:6)

And the Bible says our inheritance can NEVER perish and is kept for us in Heaven. "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In His great mercy He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that CAN NEVER PERISH, spoil or fade - KEPT IN HEAVEN FOR YOU, who are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD through faith to salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5)

And that inheritance is GUARANTEED with the SEAL of the Holy Spirit: "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked with a SEAL, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a DEPOSIT GUARANTEEING OUR INHERITANCE until the redemption of those who are God's possession - to the praise of His glory." (Ephesians 1:13-14)

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were SEALED for the day of redemption." (Ephesians 4:30)

As we are sealed for the day of redemption (Christ's second coming) if believers did not have eternal security, the sealing could not truly be unto the day of redemption, but ONLY to the day of sinning, apostacy, or disbelief.

In John 5:24 Jesus says: "He who hears my word and believes in Him who sent me has eternal life, and SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT, but has passed from death into life."

YOU say they CAN come into judgment and lose eternal life.

Whatever God does is forever (Eccl. 3:14). Salvation is initiated by God (John 15:16, Romans 8:29-30). We were predestined by Him for salvation (Eph. 1:4-5). Would God choose us, mark us out, call us into salvation and then abandon us? No. God's salvation is ETERNAL.

No sin, no failure, or weakness on our part can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:35-39).

Our problem before God before we were saved was a legal one. we had broken God's laws by our sin and had thus incurred the Law's righteous judgment. According to the Law of God, where transgression of the Law is, death must take place (Romans 6:23). It is not a matter of God loving us, overlooking our sins and forgetting about the Law's judgment. If God were to do this, His very Throne would topple. God is bound by His own Law to judge sin. Since God desired to save us and since we could not pay the debt ourselves, He, in His mercy, decided to do it Himself. Jesus died that substitutionary death on the cross to pay that sin debt. His death, being reckoned by God AS OURS, was acceptable to God. Now when we believe in Christ, His death is counted in God's sight AS OUR OWN. Thus, our debt of sin is righteously paid, and we are saved.

Now, can God take back this salvation which Christ purchased in His own blood? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Since the debt was FULLY PAID, for God to demand it AGAIN from us would be unrighteous! The same righteousness which formerly called for our condemnation now calls for our justification. Thus, the Bible declares that when God saves us, He shows forth His righteousness (Romans 1:16-17; 3:25-26).

When we were saved, we not only received something, we also became something. We became children of God, born of his eternal life (John 1:12-13). A human father may be able to take back a gift he has given to his child, but he can never take back the human life that has been imparted. Although the child may misbehave, the child is still the father's. In the same way we are God's children. Although we have many weaknesses and may require His discipline, our sins and weaknesses cannot change the fact that we are His children. The life we received by our second birth is the ETERNAL life, the INDESTRUCTIBLE life, the LIFE OF GOD, the life that can NEVER die, Once we are born again, we can never be "un-born."

Christ himself PROMISED to keep us, uphold us and NEVER leave us. Christ NEVER fails to accomplish what He pledges. Jesus said, "Him who comes to me I SHALL BY NO MEANS CAST OUT" (John 6:37).

YOU say if we sin, we are "cast out." YOU say if we fail to repent of a sin, we are "cast out." YOU say if we fail to do good works, we are "cast out." If what YOU say is true, then Jesus is a LIAR.

The Bible says: "I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him for that day." (2 Timothy 1:12).

You say it is by works that keeps us saved - the Bible says it is JESUS who keeps us saved.

To say it is we ourselves that maintain our salvation is to strip God of glory and lessons His remarkable offering of grace and mercy.

All of the righteousness of Christ has been put into our accounts. God always looks at us through the righteousness of Christ that has been given to us. (The formal doctrine is called the "imputation of the righteousness of Christ). For a believer to somehow lose his salvation would demand a TOTAL reversal and an undoing of ALL the proceding works of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

When the Father looks upon us, He sees His son Jesus. That's why we can be called:

Holy (Hebrews 10:10, 13:12)

Righteous (Romans 3:22)

Perfect (Hebrews 10:14)

Saints (Philippians 4:21-22, 1 Corinthians 1:2)

A citizen of Heaven (Philippians 3:20)

And we have:

NO condemnation (Romans 8:1)

NO separation from God's love (Romans 8:39)

SURE hope of resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:22)

A PROMISE of life (2 Timothy 1:1)

Words of eternal life (John 6:68)

You are simply trying to EARN the maintaining of salvation by works. You need to open yourself up to the truth that it is JESUS ALONE who will be glorified for keeping you saved - not Jesus AND you. God will NOT share the credit with you.

Also, even if they do continue in good works, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to repent from every sin they might commit to the end

I see. So, all of you sins were not covered by the blood and forgiven at the cross?

That's like saying you keep repenting over and over your whole life, but in the split second before you get run over by a truck and killed you have a sinful thought and go straight to hell.

Is THAT what you are saying?

The Bible says ALL of our sins (not just the ones we committed before we were saved) have been forgiven. Past, present and future.

"The blood of Jesus Christ, God's son, cleanses us from ALL sin." (1 John 1:7)

"But now He has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you HOLY in His sight, WITHOUT BLEMISH and FREE FROM ACCUSATION" (Colossians 1:22).

"Therefore, there is now NO CONDEMNATION for those in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1)

When a person becomes a Christian, ALL his sins have been forgiven and PAID IN FULL by Christ. There remains NO further payment that can be made for them, NO further expiation required.

It's a good thing Paul did not die at the moment he wrote:

"We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin" (Romans 7:14-25).

Notice he says the things "that I DO' not the things that he DID. Meaning, he still did them.

Good thing Paul didn't have a heart attack at that moment, by your reasoning, he would have ended up in hell.

Heck, Paul even called himself the chief of sinners.

"...Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners - of whom I AM the worst!" (1 Timothy 1:15)

Notice he said "I am" not I was."

Once again, you are simply trying to earn your salvation. Either Jesus forgave all of our sins, put them under the blood and forgot them (Hebrews 10:17) removing them as far as the east is from the west (Psalm 103:12) and cast ALL of them into the depths of the sea (Micah 7:19) or He didn't.

If He didn't, I sure hope you don't ever forget a single sin you've committed and failed to repent of before you die. Or die in the middle of committing a sin.

Wyguy, I sure would be happy to be taken up with you to heaven in a pre-trib rapture. And if I'm ever sitting in one of "the antichrist's concentration camps" waiting to be beheaded, I sure hope you'll be sitting near me reminding me of what you just said here

But don't tell me I will be taken up before the trib, I sill won't believe you

[Bible2]

wyguy said:

That's nothing but "works righteousness" and it's an abomination to God.

How is works righteousness an abomination to God, when his word specifically warns us: "let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous" (1 John 3:7)?

wyguy said:

That's like giving a friend a gift and then telling them they can only keep it if they wash your car every week for life.

Rather, it's like giving a friend mouth to mouth resuscitation and then telling him that he can only keep alive if he keeps on breathing and doesn't wrongly employ his will to strangle himself by hanging.

"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit [breath] is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (James 2:20-26).

wyguy said:

God says He gives us eternal life as a free gift. If that gift can be taken away:

1) It was never actually a gift.

2) It was never eternal.

3) It was never free.

Actually, a free gift can be taken away. For example, imagine a father gives his 10-year-old son a little puppy as a free gift [cf. Romans 6:23], but he warns his son that he has to remember to feed and water the puppy every day [cf. Luke 9:23] or it will die [James 2:26]. The son says no problem and takes good care of the puppy for a few weeks, but then gets so distracted by playing video games that he forgets to feed or water the puppy for three days and it dies. The father then takes the dead puppy away from the son and buries it in the back yard [cf. John 15:2,6]. Does this mean that the puppy wasn't a free gift?

Also, possessing something that's eternal in itself doesn't require that one will eternally keep possession of it. For example, say that one of the eternal precious stones of the city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:19) happened to be given to someone living now on the earth and he kept it in his front pocket. But after a few years he got complacent about it and decided to sell it to a jeweler for a tremendous load of cash [cf. Hebrews 12:16-17], and so he gave up his possession of it. Does that mean that it was never eternal?

wyguy said:

Philippians 1:6 says "Being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus" . . .

1 Corinthians 1:8 says: "HE will keep you strong to the END, so that you will be blameless on the Day of our lord Jesus Christ."

Philippians 1:6 and 1 Corinthians 1:8 do mean that God will complete the work he has begun in saved people. But other passages show that he will do this only if they continue to cooperate with him and work along with him, and don't wrongly employ their will to, for example, become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2, Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Hebrews 5:9, Colossians 1:29, 1 Corinthians 3:9).

God doesn't turn saved people into robots or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whose strings he pulls to make them dance across the stage. Thank God that, instead, he leaves all saved people as his real children with free wills. And because he leaves them with free wills, they themselves have to choose each and every day for the rest of their lives to deny themselves, to take up their crosses themselves, and to continue to follow Jesus (Luke 9:23) to the end. But there's no assurance that they will choose to do that:

For initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Matthew 24:9-13, Luke 8:13, John 15:6, Hebrews 6:4-8, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, 2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Also, even if they do continue in the faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue in good works and obedience to the end (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2).

Also, even if they do continue in good works, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to repent from every sin they might commit to the end (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Hebrews 5:9), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 24:48-51, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:20-22), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Luke 12:45-46). Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome (Revelation 3:5), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Revelation 21:7-8).

wyguy said:

And as far as God is concerned, we are already seated with Christ in Heaven: "And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the Heavenly realms in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:6)

Ephesians 2:6 can refer figuratively to salvation under the New Covenant (cf. Hebrews 12:22, Galatians 4:24-26). Ephesians 2:6 doesn't say that salvation can't be lost.

wyguy said:

And the Bible says our inheritance can NEVER perish and is kept for us in Heaven. "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In His great mercy He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that CAN NEVER PERISH, spoil or fade - KEPT IN HEAVEN FOR YOU, who are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD through faith to salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5)

And that inheritance is GUARANTEED with the SEAL of the Holy Spirit: "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked with a SEAL, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a DEPOSIT GUARANTEEING OUR INHERITANCE until the redemption of those who are God's possession - to the praise of His glory." (Ephesians 1:13-14)

1 Peter 1:4 and Ephesians 1:14 don't say that one's inheritance can't be forfeited by one's own free will (cf. Hebrews 12:16-17). And 1 Peter 1:5 means that saved people are guarded ("kept") by the power of God through their faith. But the Bible gives no assurance that saved people will choose to continue in the faith, and not wrongly employ their will to depart from the faith, to commit apostasy, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Matthew 24:9-13, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 10:38-39, 2 Timothy 4:3-4).

(Continued) (Due to the limit on the number of quoted blocks of text)

[Bible2]

(Continued)

wyguy said:

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were SEALED for the day of redemption." (Ephesians 4:30)

As we are sealed for the day of redemption (Christ's second coming) if believers did not have eternal security, the sealing could not truly be unto the day of redemption, but ONLY to the day of sinning, apostacy, or disbelief.

Actually, no, because salvation is lost for unrepentant sinning, laziness, or apostasy only at the judgment of the church at the second coming (Matthew 24:48-51, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38). The possibility of the loss of salvation at that time is the reason why those in the church retain their "terror" of the coming judgment of the church (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12, 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

wyguy said:

In John 5:24 Jesus says: "He who hears my word and believes in Him who sent me has eternal life, and SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT, but has passed from death into life."

All saved people will be judged (2 Corinthians 5:10). What John 5:24 means is that a saved person won't come into "condemnation" (KJV), as in the loss of salvation, so long as he continues to believe to the end (Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14). And a true, continued belief requires continued works (James 2:26, John 15:2,6).

wyguy said:

Whatever God does is forever (Eccl. 3:14).

Ecclesiastes 3:14 means only that once God does something, that event will exist in history forever. Otherwise, one would have to say that, for example, when God raised Lazarus from the dead (John 11:43-44), that Lazarus stayed alive forever. But this can't be the case, because Jesus was subsequently the first one to be raised from the dead to stay alive forever (1 Corinthians 15:23).

wyguy said:

Salvation is initiated by God (John 15:16, Romans 8:29-30). We were predestined by Him for salvation (Eph. 1:4-5).

Amen.

wyguy said:

Would God choose us, mark us out, call us into salvation and then abandon us?

Yes, but a saved person will in the end lose his salvation only if he wrongly employs his will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 24:48-51, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20, Hebrews 5:9), or if he wrongly employs his will to become utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2, Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Hebrews 5:9), or if he wrongly employs his will to commit apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Matthew 24:9-13, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 10:38-39, 2 Timothy 4:3-4). A saved person will in the end be cut off the same as an unbeliever only if he doesn't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46). A saved person will in the end have his name blotted out of the book of life only if he doesn't overcome (Revelation 3:5).

wyguy said:

No sin, no failure, or weakness on our part can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:35-39).

As was pointed out in a prior post regarding Romans 8:35-39, the earlier verse of Romans 8:28 sets up two conditions for the rest of the passage (Romans 8:28-39): the passage applies to (1) them who are the called according to God's purpose, the elect (Romans 8:33), and who are also (2) them that love God. So the passage applies only to those elect who continue to actually love God, which means those who continue to actually obey him (1 John 5:3). The elect, even after they get saved, can wrongly employ their will to stop obeying God, which means to stop loving him (John 14:24, Matthew 24:12). They need to be careful to keep themselves in the love of God (Jude 1:21) and continue in his goodness (Romans 11:22) by continuing in faithful obedience to him (John 14:21), if they don't want God to ultimately cut them off (Romans 11:22, John 15:2) and cast them away (1 Corinthians 9:27, John 15:6).

Romans 8:38-39 means that nothing outside of a saved person's own free-willed actions can separate him from God's love. For Romans 8:38-39 in no way contradicts all the other passages of the Bible which make it so clear that a saved person himself can wrongly employ his will to the ultimate loss of his salvation. (These passages were referenced in the second paragraph above.)

wyguy said:

Jesus died that substitutionary death on the cross to pay that sin debt.

Amen. But Jesus' sacrifice only covers sins that are past (Romans 3:25), as in sins that have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9). Jesus' sacrifice doesn't cover unrepentant sins (Hebrews 10:26-29).

wyguy said:

A human father may be able to take back a gift he has given to his child, but he can never take back the human life that has been imparted.

He could under the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Deuteronomy 21:18-21), and under the New Covenant, God will be even harsher to unrepentant sin than he was under the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Hebrews 10:26-29).

wyguy said:

Once we are born again, we can never be "un-born."

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7, 1 Peter 1:23-25, 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people can know that they are actually saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. Just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation. (These conditions were listed above in reply to the reference to Philippians 1:6.)

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[Bible2]

(Continued)

wyguy said:

Jesus said, "Him who comes to me I SHALL BY NO MEANS CAST OUT" (John 6:37).

John 6:37 applies only to those who continue to believe in Jesus, do works, and repent, for Jesus will cast out some initially saved people because of unrepentant sin, laziness, or apostasy, at the judgment of the church at his second coming (Matthew 24:48-51, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

wyguy said:

The Bible says: "I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him for that day." (2 Timothy 1:12).

God is able to keep that which Christians have committed unto him against that day (2 Timothy 1:12). But at the same time, God isn't willing to destroy the will of saved people, to turn them into robots. (This was discussed above in reply to the reference to Philippians 1:6.)

wyguy said:

You say it is by works that keeps us saved - the Bible says it is JESUS who keeps us saved.

It's both at the same time. For the Bible says that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they patiently continue in good works and obedience to Jesus to the end (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2).

wyguy said:

To say it is we ourselves that maintain our salvation is to strip God of glory and lessons His remarkable offering of grace and mercy.

Regarding God's glory, our working out our own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12) is to God's glory, because we can't do it apart from him making it possible for us to do it (Philippians 2:13). But at the same time, regarding God's grace and mercy, it's possible for us to wrongly employ our will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26). If we do this, we will unwittingly be trampling on Jesus and his sacrificial blood and doing despite unto the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), so that our ultimate fate will be worse than if we had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20-22).

wyguy said:

All of the righteousness of Christ has been put into our accounts . . .

That's why we can be called:

Holy (Hebrews 10:10, 13:12)

Hebrews 10:10 and Hebrews 13:12 simply mean that the once-for-all-time offering of the body of Jesus Christ has sanctified believers. But the perfect tense doesn't denote permanence. For example, if someone says in the perfect tense: "I have washed my child", this doesn't mean that the child has been made permanently clean. For after having being washed, the child can wrongly employ his will to go out and play in the mud. Similarly, washed/sanctified believers (1 Corinthians 6:11) can wrongly employ their will to go back to wallowing in the mire (2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Corinthians 12:20-21). Faith in the once-for-all-time offering of the body of Jesus Christ only sanctifies believers from sins that are past (Romans 3:25-26), as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9). Jesus' offering doesn't remit unrepentant sins (Hebrews 10:26-29).

wyguy said:

Righteous (Romans 3:22).

See the last two sentences above.

wyguy said:

Perfect (Hebrews 10:14)

Hebrews 10:14 simply means that the once-for-all-time offering of Jesus Christ has perfected believers. But, again, the perfect tense doesn't denote permanence. For another example, if someone says in the perfect tense: "I have perfected my garden", this doesn't mean that the garden has been made permanently perfect. For after having been made perfect, it can sprout weeds. Also, the "forever" in Hebrews 10:14 doesn't denote a permanent perfection, but refers to how the once-for-all-time offering of Jesus Christ is perpetually applied in the ongoing and eternal process by which saved people are "being sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14, original Greek tense), so long as they are repenting from and confessing to God every sin they might commit (1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7).

wyguy said:

Saints (Philippians 4:21-22, 1 Corinthians 1:2)

See above regarding Hebrews 10:10.

wyguy said:

A citizen of Heaven (Philippians 3:20)

Philippians 3:20 doesn't say that salvation can't be lost.

(Continued)

[Bible2]

(Continued)

wyguy said:

And we have:

NO condemnation (Romans 8:1)

The latter half of Romans 8:1 states the condition for the first half of Romans 8:1. If the latter half isn't done, then the first half doesn't apply (Romans 8:13, 1 Corinthians 9:27).

wyguy said:

NO separation from God's love (Romans 8:39)

This was addressed above in reply to an earlier reference to Romans 8:35-39.

wyguy said:

SURE hope of resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:22)

1 Corinthians 15:22 doesn't assure a resurrection unto eternal life, for one can be resurrected unto damnation (John 5:29).

wyguy said:

A PROMISE of life (2 Timothy 1:1)

Words of eternal life (John 6:68)

The promise of ultimate salvation is conditional upon one's works (Romans 2:6-8).

wyguy said:

God will NOT share the credit with you.

What is saying "Well done, thou good and faithful servant" (Matthew 25:21) if it's not giving some credit?

wyguy said:

So, all of you sins were not covered by the blood and forgiven at the cross?

As has been pointed out, faith in Jesus' blood only forgives sins that are past (Romans 3:25-26), as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9). Jesus' blood doesn't remit unrepentant sins (Hebrews 10:26-29).

wyguy said:

That's like saying you keep repenting over and over your whole life, but in the split second before you get run over by a truck and killed you have a sinful thought and go straight to hell.

If saved people commit a sin, Jesus will give them time to repent (Revelation 2:21), and if necessary he will send them warning and chastisement to make sure that they know that they still need to repent (Revelation 3:19, Hebrews 12:6-8). It's only if they wrongly employ their will to waste the time they are given and ignore the warning and chastisement, and refuse to repent (Revelation 2:21) until death (1 John 5:16) or Jesus' return (Matthew 24:48-51), that they will in the end lose their salvation because of unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 24:48-51, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20, Hebrews 5:9).

(Continued)

[Bible2]

(Continued)

wyguy said:

"The blood of Jesus Christ, God's son, cleanses us from ALL sin." (1 John 1:7)

The latter half of 1 John 1:7 has a condition attached to it in the first half of 1 John 1:7, which condition would include our doing 1 John 1:9 and our not doing Hebrews 10:26.

wyguy said:

"But now He has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you HOLY in His sight, WITHOUT BLEMISH and FREE FROM ACCUSATION" (Colossians 1:22).

Colossians 1:22 applies only if we have repented from every sin and confessed it to God (1 John 1:9). It doesn't apply if we are committing unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29).

wyguy said:

"Therefore, there is now NO CONDEMNATION for those in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1)

This was addressed above in reply to a prior reference to Romans 8:1.

wyguy said:

It's a good thing Paul did not die at the moment he wrote . . . Romans 7:14-25

Paul was careful to repent from any sin he committed, so that he wouldn't end up losing his salvation (1 Corinthians 9:27, Romans 8:13).

wyguy said:

Good thing Paul didn't have a heart attack at that moment, by your reasoning, he would have ended up in hell.

This idea was addressed above in reply to the comment about getting run over by a truck.

wyguy said:

Either Jesus forgave all of our sins, put them under the blood and forgot them (Hebrews 10:17) removing them as far as the east is from the west (Psalm 103:12) and cast ALL of them into the depths of the sea (Micah 7:19) or He didn't.

Hebrews 10:17, Psalm 103:12, and Micah 7:19 apply only to all sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9), not to any unrepentant sins (Hebrews 10:26-29).

wyguy said:

If He didn't, I sure hope you don't ever forget a single sin you've committed and failed to repent of before you die. Or die in the middle of committing a sin.

This idea was addressed above in reply to the comment about getting run over by a truck.

[Bold Believer]

Bold Believer -

Matt 10:34

³⁴"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. ³⁵ For I have come to turn

" 'a man against his father,

a daughter against her mother,

a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -

³⁶a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'^[e]

^~~~~~~

^{Jesus came to bring peace through Him with God the Father to the believer. Are you saying that we now have peace on earth?}

^{After the rapture, the Holy Spirit will be at work also but it will be as it was in the Old Testament days, those who believed did not have the Holy Spirit sealed in them as they are after the death and resurrection of Jesus. It was only then that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit. They will have to face the mark of the beast and all of the torment of the satanic host and keep the 10 commandments as they did before the coming of Jesus.}

You would be correct, IF that quote had not been pre-resurrection/Ascension. It is the atoning death, life giving resurrection and prophesied ascension of Christ to the right hand of the Father (Daniel 7) which brought peace.

Jhn 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Act 10:36 The word which [God] sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

In another place, the Gospel is called the Gospel of peace. The peace of the millennium is not some literal war-less peace, BUT THE PEACE BETWEEN GOD AND MAN THAT JESUS BRINGS BY HIS DEATH! You have that peace NOW as a Believer.

As to your second statement: baloney. See the post above. When Jesus comes, HE WILL BURN UP EVERYTHING, THERE WILL BE NO SURVIVORS.

[wyguy]

What an anxious life you must live Bible2. It must be a terrible sight to see when you sin....

YOU: "Oh no! I just sinned! I've lost my salvation and I'm on my way to hell! I repent! I repent and accept Jesus as my savior again!.....Whew!...saved!

....uh oh! I just lusted! Oh nooooo! I've lost my salvation yet again and am on the road to hell! Oh no! I repent! I repent again!.....wow....that was close.....saved at last!....

....yipes! I just had an angry thought about my neighbor! Lost again! Hell awaits!!!!! Oh no! Jesus, I repent again! Oh....oh....gee.....I almost went over the edge....that was really close!

....okay.....I think I have it under control now.....hey, there's a pretty gal walking down the street....I......oh no!...Not again!"

It must be exausting losing your salvation and getting saved over and over all day long. How many times a day do you think you sin? Do you count sinning in your sleep?

Just how many times must you crucify Christ afresh?

[Rick-Parker]

What an anxious life you must live Bible2. It must be a terrible sight to see when you sin....

YOU: "Oh no! I just sinned! I've lost my salvation and I'm on my way to hell! I repent! I repent and accept Jesus as my savior again!.....Whew!...saved!

....uh oh! I just lusted! Oh nooooo! I've lost my salvation yet again and am on the road to hell! Oh no! I repent! I repent again!.....wow....that was close.....saved at last!....

....yipes! I just had an angry thought about my neighbor! Lost again! Hell awaits!!!!! Oh no! Jesus, I repent again! Oh....oh....gee.....I almost went over the edge....that was really close!

....okay.....I think I have it under control now.....hey, there's a pretty gal walking down the street....I......oh no!...Not again!"

It must be exausting losing your salvation and getting saved over and over all day long. How many times a day do you think you sin? Do you count sinning in your sleep?

Just how many times must you crucify Christ afresh?