Nearness of the Rapture

[Rick-Parker]

Bible2 these guys know they have no truth to their argument, so they have switched from debating scripture to personal attacks. In my opinion this topic should have been closed a long time ago.

Jedi4Yahweh, you don't know what you are talking about. No one has been debating Scripture here. So there is no Scriptural argument to switch from. There are also no personal attacks, either. Perhaps you should go back and read what I have said so that you will get a clue what is being said here.

And by all means, please close this thread.

Edited September 15, 2010 by Parker1

[OneLight]

Bible2 these guys know they have no truth to their argument, so they have switched from debating scripture to personal attacks. In my opinion this topic should have been closed a long time ago.

Jedi4Yahweh, you don't know what you are talking about. No one has been debating Scripture here. So there is no Scriptural argument to switch from. There are also no personal attacks, either. Perhaps you should go back and read what I have said so that you will get a clue what is being said here.

And by all means, please close this thread.

FYI .. the only person who can close this thread besides a Board Servant is the one who started it, Da Servant.

[Guest]

Regarding why so many quoted verses have been replied to with an "Amen. But...", that's because even when what some verses say doesn't appear difficult in itself, they can still be misinterpreted by failing to qualify them in light of what the rest of the Bible says. In order to arrive at correct doctrine, verses in one place in the Bible must be compared with (qualified by) other, related verses elsewhere in the Bible (Isaiah 28:9-10, 1 Corinthians 2:13). Our doctrine must be based on what the entire Bible says (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4), and not just on what some unqualified verses say.

Bible2 these guys know they have no truth to their argument, so they have switched from debating scripture to personal attacks. In my opinion this topic should have been closed a long time ago.

:24:

You Guys Are So Precious

For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isaiah 54:5

>>>>>()<<<<<

Qualifying

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah 1:18

Love

The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee. Jeremiah 31:3

And

He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. Psalms 23:3

The Power

For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.

All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul. Psalms 22:28-29

Of The LORD Jesus Christ

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Isaiah 53:5

>>>>>()<<<<<

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him. Psalms 34:8

Be Very Blessed

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

Love, Your Brother Joe

Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. Jeremiah 17:5

Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is. Jeremiah 17:7

[Bible2]

PaulT said:

No, it is not ad hominum argument; he qualified it by saying it was his opinion.

How does couching an ad hominem argument in the form of an opinion make it not an ad hominem argument? For how does attacking someone personally as being, in one's opinion, boastful, offensive, boorish, and condescending, serve in any way to prove that what that person has said is false?

PaulT said:

No, "ad hominum" and "ad hominum tu quoque" are two different fallacies.

Actually, they're the same fallacy, an ad hominem tu quoque argument being just a specific type of ad hominem argument.

PaulT said:

You have the definition of ad hominum above; ad hominum tu quoque is more specific and is also known as the "you too" fallacy. An example would be the congressman who voted to outlaw smoking and then stepped outside for a cigarette.

That's right, which is in line which what was said before regarding the question that had been asked:

The question was an ad hominem tu quoque argument, an answer of "no" setting up the ad hominem tu quoque charge of hypocrisy, and an answer of "yes" also setting up the ad hominem tu quoque charge of hypocrisy, in that an answer of "yes" sets up the ad hominem tu quoque charge of the sin of boasting (Romans 1:30).

Such ad hominem tu quoque argumentation isn't legitimate because it does nothing to disprove the points that have been made: that all that's being said is what the Bible itself teaches (2 Timothy 3:16-17), and that the Bible itself says that it's not difficult for Christians to perfectly obey everything that it requires of them (1 John 5:3, Matthew 11:30, John 14:15,21, Matthew 5:48, Revelation 3:2, 2 Timothy 3:16-17, Colossians 1:28, Philippians 3:15, 1 Corinthians 2:6, 2 Corinthians 13:11).

PaulT said:

No. Pick your own examples; you've plenty to choose from.

How has it been proven that there's even one example?

[Bible2]

Parker1 said:

I know this question is not meant for me, but I just want to be clear. I, nor do I believe PaulT, am not disputing what you say (although I do disagree with your works based model of salvation.)

How is disagreeing with something different than disputing something?

Regarding a works based model of salvation, what has been said is that the Bible shows that while initial salvation is by faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4), both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6, Titus 3:8) are required in order to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, Matthew 7:21, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 5:9, Revelation 22:14, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Will you share the reasons why you disagree with this?

Parker1 said:

It is the way that you post. I find it to be offensive, boorish and condescending. Notice that I did not say that I find YOU to be that way, but the way that you conduct yourself through you postings, where you come in and correct or "clarify" what the poster has posted.

How is calling a person's conduct offensive, boorish and condescending different than calling that person offensive, boorish and condescending?

Also, what's wrong with clarifying what the scriptures mean? Isn't that the whole purpose of this forum, to arrive at the true meaning of the scriptures through a back-and-forth discussion?

Parker1 said:

Without posting the actual scriptures but only giving Book, Chapter and Verse, which helps no one.

We all already agree on what the Bible says; where we differ is in what it means.

So there should be no need to give quotations in replies to a discussion like this one, where all of the people who have posted clearly already know what the Bible says. The point of the discussion is to get at what the Bible actually means. That's why verses haven't just been referenced, but referenced in connection with statements regarding what those verses mean.

To make someone take the time to read long lists of quotations imbedded in a post could make him forget (or never take the time to get to) the points that were made in the post regarding what those quotations mean.

Also, just giving references allows the reader to more easily move past any statements which he already agrees with, and focus on any subsequent statements which he may have a problem with, instead of him having to search through long lists of quotations to find the next statement by the poster and see if he agrees with it or not. This saves the reader a lot of time.

Also, just giving references allows the reader to keep different posts as summary reference guides to the proof texts of positions he agrees with or disagrees with, instead of him having to keep (for reference) posts with such long lists of quotations that they're like mini-Bibles in themselves. We all already have complete Bibles, what do we need with mini-Bibles?

Also, Christians must never trust anyone claiming to be giving quotations of the Bible; everything quoted must always be checked by actually searching the Bible itself (Acts 17:11), in a good translation (or in its original languages), in order to avoid being deceived by an incorrect translation.

Also, it takes almost no time at all to search references in a good translation, for Bible Gateway provides instant quotations in good translations, even for long lists of scripture references (they don't have to be looked up one at a time).

Parker1 said:

You are not the end all or be all with the knowledge of scripture.

Who has made such a claim?

If you disagree with the meanings which have been ascribed to the scriptures, why not chime in to the discussion and post the reasons why you disagree with them, so the discussion can move forward, to the benefit of everyone?

Parker1 said:

It smells of pride and arrogance, something you said you did not want. I am pretty sure that there are many others who are offended by this, I just happen to be the one who did not control their tongue and not confront you. That is a bad characteristic that I have and which I have confessed to the Lord for His help. In my opinion, which again does not account for much, you should look at how you are affecting your brothers and sisters in Christ with your arrogant posting style and realize that it ruins your ministry to continue in the fashion. May God Bless you and open you heart to what I have said.

From what's been posted, can you quote an example of pride and arrogance?

Also, how isn't this ad hominem argumentation, maligning a poster personally instead of discussing and refuting the scriptural points that he's raised?

Also, what if you told a person, for example, that John 3:36, John 14:6, and Acts 4:12 mean that that person has to believe in Jesus if he wants to be saved, but that person replied by calling you proud and arrogant for claiming to know what those scriptures mean. How would you respond?

[Bible2]

FresnoJoe said:

You Guys Are So Precious

For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isaiah 54:5

>>>>>()<<<<<

Qualifying

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah 1:18

Amen.

But note that Hebrews 10:26-29 shows that saved people, people who have actually been sanctified by Jesus' sacrificial blood (Hebrews 10:29), which sanctification requires faith (Acts 26:18, Romans 3:25), can, after they get saved, wrongly employ their will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26). By doing this, these saved people are unwittingly trampling on Jesus and his sacrificial blood and doing despite unto the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they'd never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20-22).

Faith in Jesus' sacrificial blood only remits sins that are past (Romans 3:25), as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7). Jesus' sacrificial blood doesn't remit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29). So a saved person can in the end lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 24:48-51, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20, Hebrews 5:9).

The immediate context of Hebrews 10:26-29 is Hebrews 10:25-29, which is addressing "we" saved people. Hebrews 10:25-29 is the same idea as Hebrews 3:13: Saved people need to gather together and exhort each other so that no saved person will fall into any unrepentant sin. For any unrepentant sin will ultimately result in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 24:48-51).

FresnoJoe said:

Love

The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee. Jeremiah 31:3

Amen.

But note that saved people need to be careful to keep themselves in the love of God (Jude 1:21) and continue in his goodness (Romans 11:22) by continuing in faithful obedience to him (John 14:21), if they don't want God to ultimately cut them off (Romans 11:22, John 15:2a) and cast them away (1 Corinthians 9:27, John 15:6).

FresnoJoe said:

And

He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. Psalms 23:3

The Power

For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.

All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul. Psalms 22:28-29

Amen.

God leads saved people in the paths of righteousness by his power. But he doesn't take away their free will, turning them into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whose strings God pulls to make them dance across the stage. Thank God that, instead, he leaves all saved people as his real children with free wills. And because he leaves them with free wills, they themselves have to choose each and every day for the rest of their lives to deny themselves, to take up their crosses themselves, and to continue to follow Jesus (Luke 9:23) unto the end. But there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Luke 8:13, Matthew 24:48-51, Matthew 25:26,30).

FresnoJoe said:

Of The LORD Jesus Christ

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Isaiah 53:5

Amen.

But note what was said earlier regarding Hebrews 10:26-29.

FresnoJoe said:

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him. Psalms 34:8

Be Very Blessed

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

Love, Your Brother Joe

Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. Jeremiah 17:5

Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is. Jeremiah 17:7

Amen.

Christians must never trust in themselves, for apart from Jesus they're desperately wicked (Jeremiah 17:9) and can't do anything good (Romans 3:12, John 15:5b).

[Bold Believer]

Works prove faith. No one can dispute that. James tells us that. Yet Paul tells us in Titus that salvation is NOT of works which we have done.

John tells us that salvation is NOT of the will of man. Do we even have a choice in the matter? Are we not elect from the foundation of the world? It is God who draws, it is God who saves, it is Christ who died and rose again. Bible2, you bring strange fire before the Lord. Salvation is not man-dependent, it's Christ dependent! A man good enough to earn his salvation doesn't exist. You go ahead and work for your salvation. The rest of us will trust Jesus.

Your understanding of Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 is flawed. The entire book of Hebrews is about covenant superiority. Rejection of the New Covenant is tantamount to rejecting Moishe's law. If those who willfully reject the Law of Moses die at the hand of two or three witnesses, those who willfully reject the New Covenant after being told the truth trample the blood of Christ treating it as an unholy thing and will suffer a greater punishment. Knowing the truth is not the same as BELIEVING it in faith.

Finally, if you read Revelation 20, you find that it is the GODLESS who are judged by their works, not the Believers.

Oh...not that I am a pre-tribber or anything other than a last day rapturist, but what does this have to do with how near the rapture might be?

[Guest man]

Works prove faith

Not really.

[Guest]

.... Oh...not that I am a pre-tribber or anything other than a last day rapturist, but what does this have to do with how near the rapture might be?....

:24:

Everything

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matthew 24:14

>>>>>()<<<<<

Faithless

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:5

Faithful

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Revelation 20:6

Grace

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Ephesians 2:8

Graceless

Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:9

[Rick-Parker]

Bible2 these guys know they have no truth to their argument, so they have switched from debating scripture to personal attacks. In my opinion this topic should have been closed a long time ago.

Jedi4Yahweh, you don't know what you are talking about. No one has been debating Scripture here. So there is no Scriptural argument to switch from. There are also no personal attacks, either. Perhaps you should go back and read what I have said so that you will get a clue what is being said here.

And by all means, please close this thread.

FYI .. the only person who can close this thread besides a Board Servant is the one who started it, Da Servant.

I know that.