Do We Need Jesus?

[Guest Dr. Hall]

Most Christians maintain that in order for anyone to approach G-d, or to "inherit the kingdom of Heaven" as they put it, or to "attain salvation" (again, their phraseology), one must go through jesus. They insist that one cannot do this except through jesus.

In the first place, it seems rather strange that the Torah should be so insistent that each and every one of us can reach G-d directly.

For example:

For this commandment that I command you this day, it is not too hard for you, nor is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us and make us hear it?' It is not over the ocean.... But this thing is very close to YOU in YOUR mouth and your heart to do it."

-- Deut 30:11-14

Evidently, we ourselves are capable of fulfilling the Commandments and obeying Hashem's will.

And furthermore, we also find that even when the Jews are at the lowest level, even after having served idols, the Torah promises us, "And you will request from there (that low level) Hashem your G-d, and YOU WILL FIND, if you search with all your heart and all your soul" (Deut. 4:29).

We ourselves can find Hashem, if we just do it honestly and sincerely. Why does the Torah not say that we must do it through jesus? Because belief in jesus is not necessary, and has never been a part of Torah or Hashem.

And even jesus said so! Jesus said that if you fulfill the Torah, and do not believe in Jesus, you will still go to Heaven.

You don't believe me? He says this in Matthew, Chapter 12, verses 31 through 32:

I say to you, All types of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven people. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, he shall be forgiven. But whoever speaks against the Holy Ghost, he shall not be forgiven, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

In other words, it is possible not to believe in jesus, and still go to Heaven. But not believing in G-d is unforgivable.

I must also add at this point that this passage makes it hard to see why Christians claim that Christianity is a religion of forgiveness and love. Here is something that the Christian bible says can never be forgiven!

The passage I quote next makes both points even more strongly. Jesus says that there are people who will consider jesus to be their savior and god, and yet will still not go to Heaven!

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 7:21

In other words, even some of the people who do believe in Jesus and accept him, people whose belief in him was strong enough to give them (supposedly) the power to cast out devils, many of them will not go to Heaven anyway. Why not? Because even though they believed in Jesus, they did not do the will of G-d, whom the Christians call the Father. Apparently, it is not enough to believe in Jesus. One must also fulfill what the Torah says.

But the Torah also says that we must fulfill the words of the Torah! And the Torah does not say we need to believe in jesus!

So why should anyone believe that we need jesus?

Christians say that G-d cannot accept sin, so therefore everyone is doomed. But G-d, out of mercy, killed himself so that we would have forgiveness.

Yet the Torah clearly tells us that Hashem Himself forgives! All we have to do is repent. For example: "Let the evil person forsake his ways, and the man of sin forsake his evil thoughts, and let him return to G-d and He will have mercy on him, to our G-d, because He greatly forgives" (Isaiah 55:7).

And it says, "Do I desire the death of the wicked? says the L-rd G-d. What I want is for him to return from his ways and live!" (Ezekiel 18:23).

That's all it takes. Return from sin, and live!

[WayneB]

Since I see Mike Irish here, I will leave the thread for now so brother Mike can respond.

Dr. Hall...you twist the Words of Christ to fit your understanding. I deleted your other thread. One thread at a time by you is enough! Saints, defend the FAITH. Listen to the WORD of the Lord rather than be taken in by the prowling lion that roams amoung us.

Be Blessed,

Wayne

The Gospel according to John, chapter 14

1

[cymba22]

We are no longer under the law....Jesus himself said no man comes unto my father but by me....to say otherwise is calling our saviour a lier...that in itself is blasphemy

[Matthitjah]

Dr. Hall,

You still have not answered my question?

What will you do with your sin that seperates you from the Most Holy Living God?

Isa

[Trinity]

1 John 5:12

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Case closed. you Need Jesus.

And if so... God died in VAIN!

[BobTriez]

Dr. Hall,

You still have not answered my question?

Nor have you answered mine Please do.....

Your's in Christ,

Bob

[nebula]

Yet the Torah clearly tells us that Hashem Himself forgives! All we have to do is repent. For example: "Let the evil person forsake his ways, and the man of sin forsake his evil thoughts, and let him return to G-d and He will have mercy on him, to our G-d, because He greatly forgives" (Isaiah 55:7).

And it says, "Do I desire the death of the wicked? says the L-rd G-d. What I want is for him to return from his ways and live!" (Ezekiel 18:23).

That's all it takes. Return from sin, and live!

That's it?

Dr. Hall - what about all the animal sacrifices?

Have you forgotten those?

For example:

Leviticus 16

The Day of Atonement

1 The LORD spoke to Moses after the death of the two sons of Aaron who died when they approached the LORD . 2 The LORD said to Moses: "Tell your brother Aaron not to come whenever he chooses into the Most Holy Place behind the curtain in front of the atonement cover on the ark, or else he will die, because I appear in the cloud over the atonement cover.

3 "This is how Aaron is to enter the sanctuary area: with a young bull for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering. 4 He is to put on the sacred linen tunic, with linen undergarments next to his body; he is to tie the linen sash around him and put on the linen turban. These are sacred garments; so he must bathe himself with water before he puts them on. 5 From the Israelite community he is to take two male goats for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering.

6 "Aaron is to offer the bull for his own sin offering to make atonement for himself and his household. 7 Then he is to take the two goats and present them before the LORD at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. 8 He is to cast lots for the two goats-one lot for the LORD and the other for the scapegoat. [1] 9 Aaron shall bring the goat whose lot falls to the LORD and sacrifice it for a sin offering. 10 But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD to be used for making atonement by sending it into the desert as a scapegoat.

11 "Aaron shall bring the bull for his own sin offering to make atonement for himself and his household, and he is to slaughter the bull for his own sin offering. 12 He is to take a censer full of burning coals from the altar before the LORD and two handfuls of finely ground fragrant incense and take them behind the curtain. 13 He is to put the incense on the fire before the LORD , and the smoke of the incense will conceal the atonement cover above the Testimony, so that he will not die. 14 He is to take some of the bull's blood and with his finger sprinkle it on the front of the atonement cover; then he shall sprinkle some of it with his finger seven times before the atonement cover.

15 "He shall then slaughter the goat for the sin offering for the people and take its blood behind the curtain and do with it as he did with the bull's blood: He shall sprinkle it on the atonement cover and in front of it. 16 In this way he will make atonement for the Most Holy Place because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been. He is to do the same for the Tent of Meeting, which is among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 No one is to be in the Tent of Meeting from the time Aaron goes in to make atonement in the Most Holy Place until he comes out, having made atonement for himself, his household and the whole community of Israel.

18 "Then he shall come out to the altar that is before the LORD and make atonement for it. He shall take some of the bull's blood and some of the goat's blood and put it on all the horns of the altar. 19 He shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times to cleanse it and to consecrate it from the uncleanness of the Israelites.

20 "When Aaron has finished making atonement for the Most Holy Place, the Tent of Meeting and the altar, he shall bring forward the live goat. 21 He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites-all their sins-and put them on the goat's head. He shall send the goat away into the desert in the care of a man appointed for the task. 22 The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a solitary place; and the man shall release it in the desert.

23 "Then Aaron is to go into the Tent of Meeting and take off the linen garments he put on before he entered the Most Holy Place, and he is to leave them there. 24 He shall bathe himself with water in a holy place and put on his regular garments. Then he shall come out and sacrifice the burnt offering for himself and the burnt offering for the people, to make atonement for himself and for the people. 25 He shall also burn the fat of the sin offering on the altar.

26 "The man who releases the goat as a scapegoat must wash his clothes and bathe himself with water; afterward he may come into the camp. 27 The bull and the goat for the sin offerings, whose blood was brought into the Most Holy Place to make atonement, must be taken outside the camp; their hides, flesh and offal are to be burned up. 28 The man who burns them must wash his clothes and bathe himself with water; afterward he may come into the camp.

29 "This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: On the tenth day of the seventh month you must deny yourselves [2] and not do any work-whether native-born or an alien living among you- 30 because on this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you. Then, before the LORD , you will be clean from all your sins. 31 It is a sabbath of rest, and you must deny yourselves; it is a lasting ordinance. 32 The priest who is anointed and ordained to succeed his father as high priest is to make atonement. He is to put on the sacred linen garments 33 and make atonement for the Most Holy Place, for the Tent of Meeting and the altar, and for the priests and all the people of the community.

34 "This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: Atonement is to be made once a year for all the sins of the Israelites."

And it was done, as the LORD commanded Moses.

[Kabowd]

There's a good Greek word for Dr. Hall's theology: baloney

For this commandment that I command you this day, it is not too hard for you, nor is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us and make us hear it?' It is not over the ocean.... But this thing is very close to YOU in YOUR mouth and your heart to do it."

-- Deut 30:11-14

And furthermore, we also find that even when the Jews are at the lowest level, even after having served idols, the Torah promises us, "And you will request from there (that low level) Hashem your G-d, and YOU WILL FIND, if you search with all your heart and all your soul" (Deut. 4:29).

First of all, these were pre-Christ's atonement...but I'll get to that in a minute.

Why does the Torah not say that we must do it through jesus? Because belief in jesus is not necessary, and has never been a part of Torah or Hashem.

So what was the point in Christ coming to earth in the form of a man, suffering and dying a gruesome death on our behalf? To deny that belief in Jesus is unnecessary is to deny the entire New Testament message.

"...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." Romans 3:23-24

"..if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord", and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." Romans 10:9-11

"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" Galatians 2:20-21

"He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit." Galatians 3:14

"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29

Suggested reading: Hebrews 9 and 10 ... all of it.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 7:21

Believing in Christ and knowing Him personally are two different things. Christ is speaking of those who only knew of Him, not those that had a personal relationship with Him. The Greek word for "never" is "oudepote" which means "never at ANY time". These are ppl who never knew Christ personally at any point in time.

Since you seem fond of the Old Testament, listen to what the prophet Isaiah had to say about the coming of Christ and His destiny,

"The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me, because the Lord has anointed me to preach good news to the ppor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn, and provide for those who grieve in Zion - to bestow on them a crown of beauty instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, and a garment of praise instead of a spirit of despair. They will be called oaks of righteousness, a planting of the Lord for the display of His splendor." Isaiah 61:1-3

Also suggested reading Isaiah 53. That should get you started.

[Guest Dr. Hall]

How Does a Jew Attain Salvation?

Christianity maintains that all men are doomed to sin, and everyone will go to everlasting hell unless they accept jesus as their savior.

Judaism has always held that we do not need that sort of salvation, for we are not doomed or damned at birth. We are not doomed or fated to sin. Quite the contrary. The Torah says: "If you do good, won't there be special privilege? And if you do not do good, sin waits at the door. It lusts after you, but you can dominate it." (Genesis 4:7) In other words, you can do good, and if you do, things will be better for you. If you do not do good, sin wants to be partners with you. But you can control sin, you can control your evil desires, and you can be good.

So we have free will, and that is what Judaism has always believed, because that is what the Torah teaches. The Torah does not teach -- or even mention -- that we are "born in sin," or that we are fated to sin. Just the opposite. We have the ability to choose.

Which means that we can be good, or we can be evil. It's up to us. And if can be good, that means we can be righteous. I cannot understand how or why Christians like to say that no one can be righteous in the eyes of G-d. The Torah says otherwise.

I often say to missionaries that if they choose to believe that all Gentiles are sinful, I would have to disagree, but I won't bother to argue the point. It's their own people, let them say what they want.

But if they choose to say that all people, including Jews, are sinful and cannot be righteous, I have to strongly disagree, because the Torah says quite the opposite: "All your nation is righteous, they will inherit the earth eternally; the shoot that I have planted, the work of My hands, something to be proud of" (Isaiah 60:21). So we are righteous, and Hashem is proud of us.

And it says, "Open the gates, so that the righteous nation that keeps the faith may enter" (Isaiah 26:2).

We Children of Israel are righteous. For the Torah says so. Of course, we must uphold the Torah, or otherwise we might cease to be righteous. But as long as we keep the Torah, we are righteous.

The Prophets of the Torah warned us about this many times. They often called us wicked. When? When we did not obey the Commandments of the Torah. Yet never once in all of the Jewish Bible did the Prophets chastise us for not believing in jesus! Not once!

I also have to wonder: if no one can be righteous in the eyes of G-d, how can the Torah call Noah righteous (Genesis 6:9, 7:1), as just one example? "Noah walked with G-d," the Torah says. Obviously you can be righteous and you can walk with G-d without the help of jesus.

Hashem called Moses was a trusted servant, and closer to Him than any other prophet. Moses spoke directly to Hashem, and Hashem spoke directly to Moses (Numbers 12:6-8). No mention was made of jesus.

The problem is that Christians do not understand the meaning of the concept "righteousness." They think it means that one has never sinned. Never sinning is almost impossible. The Torah says that "There is no person on earth so righteous that he does only good and never sins" (Eccl. 7:20)

Rather, the definition of a righteous person is as taught in Proverbs 24:16: "The righteous fall even seven times and still get up, but the wicked stumble in evil."

Being righteous does not mean that one never sins. It means that after you sin you get back up again, repent, and try again. You keep on trying. That is being righteous.

Not only that, but even if you keep on trying, and you don't succeed very well, and you have many sins, you can still be forgiven and go to Heaven. In the Book of Job (33:23) it says that if someone has even only one merit and 1000 sins, he is rescued from hell. So we are not doomed to hell.

That's what Judaism teaches, as we see from the Torah. The Christian bible, on the other hand, teaches that there is no repentance after sinning. Here is what it says in the christian bible:

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

-- 2 Peter 2:20-21

In other words, if anyone accepted jesus as savior, and then sins, they are in worse trouble than they were before they accepted jesus.

So what then is the advantage of accepting jesus? It seems better to stay with Hashem! Hashem accepts repentance, and loves all those who turn away from sin, no matter how many times they have sinned and repented. "For the righteous stumble even seven times, but they get up again!"

And they are still called righteous!

And the wicked who repent are no longer called wicked.

Even when I have told the wicked that he will die, but then he repents, and he does justice and righteousness; he returns the collateral when he is supposed to, he repays what he stole, he begins to live by the Laws of Life, and does not do evil, he will live, and he will not die. All the sins that he committed will not be held against him, for he has begun to do judgment and righteousness; he shall surely live.

-- Ezekiel 33:14-16

We see, therefore another fallacy of the Christians, who argue that "sin has separated us from a perfectly holy G-d." We are not separated from Hashem at all. All we need to do is repent.

But no, say the Christians. Repentance won't work, for some reason that we cannot understand. They claim that "no one can be close to G-d without jesus."

This is completely wrong. The righteous live by their own faith. (Habbakuk 2:4) We do not gain life or atonement by the faith or righteousness of jesus. We are masters of our own fate, because the choice to do good or bad is our own.

Was King David separated from G-d? Yet the Torah says about him that he did one thing wrong (1 Kings 15:5) and yet he was considered righteous and Hashem was with him. (See, for example, 1 Kings 11:34; 1 Kings 18:14).) Whenever a royal descendant of King David did the right thing, the Torah says about him that he followed in the ways of his ancestor David. (See, for example, 1 Kings 14:8; 2 Kings 18:3; 2 Kings 22:2; et al.)

Did Moses sin? Was he close to G-d or not? Did Abraham sin? Was he close to G-d or not?

And if you examine the Christian belief in this matter, you will find that many denominations believe that G-d only chooses those that G-d has previously decided to choose. In other words, G-d will accept into Heaven only on those whom He has decided to accept into Heaven, and we have no free will or choice! That means that we cannot even be good people if we try! It's all up to G-d! "Many are called, but few are chosen."

How is this merciful?

What about all those people who are not chosen? How do they attain "salvation?" Why can they not attain salvation, when it isn't even their fault? That is possibly the cruelest doctrine I have ever heard! No matter what a person does, he will get Heaven only if G-d had previously chosen him to get Heaven! Everyone else goes to eternal hell!

In Judaism, it is entirely up to you. If you do good, you will get good.

[georgesbluegirl]

Hey Dr. Hall, you might be interested in the Catholicism thread somewhere in this Apologetics section. The last five pages (I estimate) are about non-Christians attaining Heaven (which I argue for and just about everyone else argues against). Enjoy...