Lanakila Posted June 11, 2002 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 400 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2001 Status: Offline Share Posted June 11, 2002 The grafted in verses can't be about salvation Romans 2:28-29 A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God. 3:1. What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2. Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God. 3. What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? 4. Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge." 5. But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6. Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7. Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" 8. Why not say--as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved. 9. What shall we conclude then? Are we any better ? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. Basically you must read the whole book of Romans because the passage you quote Munari isn't saying that one can lose their salvation. Paul is talking about the Gentile church in general here (in context) and the Jewish unbelievers.He is prophetically stating that the Jews will be grafted back in. We know from the book of Rev some of that Gentile church lose their first love, and there are aspostates mixed in we get in the book of 1 John. I don't serve God out of fear of losing my salvation but love because He saved me in the first place. Can you see the difference? There is no scripture that says that you are not his child anymore, or that God will take the Holy Spirit that births you into His family in the first place. None. Eph1:13,14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14. who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory. Eph 3:6 6. This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. The Jews that believed in Jesus were not cut off, but the ones who reject Him as the Messiah. We were grafted in when we accepted Christ. Those who reject Christ as Messiah both Jew and Gentile are unbelievers that are cut off from salvation. This is very clear based on the rest of the scriptures I quote here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munari Posted June 11, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 444 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/08/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted June 11, 2002 1 Corinthians 9 24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanakila Posted June 11, 2002 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 400 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2001 Status: Offline Share Posted June 11, 2002 To be an Apostle, to preach the gospel or any miriad of things Paul was doing. Does not teach loss of salvation either. What verses is this by the way, it helps if you put the reference down, Please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munari Posted June 11, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 444 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/08/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted June 11, 2002 Lan, Please, explain these verses specifically then: Romans 11: 19 Indeed you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not BECOME haughty, but stand in awe. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either. 22 See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, PROVIDED YOU REMAIN IN HIS KINDNESS; otherwise you too WILL BE cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to GRAFT THEM IN AGAIN. As you said, believers are grafted in. Paul wrote this epistle to those who were members of the Church, people who were believers, people who were grafted. As you said, only believers are grafted. The verses I quoted above say that God will cut off those who become haughty (and lose their faith). Verse 22 shows salvation as conditional by saying "provided you remain." Those words suggest that a person is already in God's grace and by saying "provided", it is saying that one can lose that grace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munari Posted June 11, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 444 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/08/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted June 11, 2002 sorry, that was 1 Corinthians 9... I'll add it to the other post too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanakila Posted June 11, 2002 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 400 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2001 Status: Offline Share Posted June 11, 2002 What does perhaps mean to you? Means to me if it were possible, not that it is possible. Do you see the difference? What about the verses that say no man can pluck you out of my hand, and the ones in Ephesians I quoted. I really think you are taking these verses in Romans out of context based on the rest of scripture that teaches eternal security. But, to be honest it doesn't really matter if you are secure in your salvation being a gift that you don't earn by good works, but by the grace of God through Christ Jesus. My faith is in God who keeps me until the day of redemption, not my own self. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munari Posted June 11, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 444 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/08/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted June 11, 2002 and Lan, Paul was speaking of all of us as runners, and himself too. For himself, he may be speaking of losing his apostleship (if that is possible), but what is he speaking to US about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munari Posted June 11, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 444 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/08/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted June 11, 2002 Perhaps means that he can do it, but in his mercy, he may not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Xan Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 Perhaps means that he can do it, but in his mercy, he may not. Exactly, it is something He can do, but in His mercy, He will not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munari Posted June 11, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 444 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/08/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted June 11, 2002 22 See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, PROVIDED YOU REMAIN IN HIS KINDNESS; otherwise you too WILL BE cut off. This clarifies "perhaps" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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