Where did Matter/Energy come from?

[Isaiah 6:8]

Technically you are right. There is no evidence (apart from an extrapolation of the quantum field equations) that the quantum field theory is right.

And I never said that another faith based argument is wrong. If you can pinpoint the post where I said that, then I officially apologize.

I simply state that the God theory CANNOT be proven logically/scientifically, like some are desperately trying to do. You have to take that on faith, too.

Finally you agree. the thing is why did you complicate the issue? I asked a simple question and you answered with a complex answer that was just a long way of saying, yes everything always existed.

You are saying that all our arguments are wrong, because they are not scientific/logical in multiple threads. You continue to do so. We never deny our faith in the process. See I believe in God and that true empirical science exists. If I did not we would not be having this debate as I would not belive in computers, which are built from science.

However Evolution, the creation of the universe, that is not empirical science. No facts exist that prove it. You really cannot test it, or observe it. You can not replicate it. It is unprovable. But yet people say it is but when you look at the facts, you realize that the facts just say that something happened, but not how, or what they mean.

I have said this before, both creationists, and evolutionists both look at the same facts, and then draw conclusions that the same data proves both there theory. If one fact can prove two opposite theories, then what to you have? Forming the data to fit the theories, vs forming the theory to match the data. You would be a horrible detective if you did this.

So since no facts exist that prove one way or another, then evolution is not science. It is faith. You have chosen to believe by faith that everything always existed in some form. You have chosen by faith, to believe in chance that for some reason the whole cosmos was formed by a lucky accident. You have chosen by faith that all life evolved, again by accidents and happy chance. You have chosen by faith as logically evolution does not work.

Now you have a problem, you have chosen to deny god by choosing evolution.

Here is your problem. If you are right, then nothing you do on this earth really matters, and when you die, you will simply cease to exist, and if you are right so will I, but that is fine with me.

If you are wrong and the God of the Bible of whom I belive on does exist, then you will wind up surprised by Him, and then when he asked you why you did not accept him, and why he should let you into heaven, then what will you say to him? No matter what it is, you are now at the point apart from choosing. You can only respond, and then , you will be sent to hell. I will be welcomed in, not because of something I worked for, not because I am perfect, but because I simply accepted the Saving Grace of Jesus.

Now I truly, hope, (no matter how frustrated I may seem with you) that you will come to the saving grace of Jesus for real. If you don't it is my honest belief that you are dooming yourself to eternal torment. I do not wish that on you.

[Isaiah 6:8]

If you are wrong and the God of the Bible of whom I belive on does exist, then you will wind up surprised by Him, and then when he asked you why you did not accept him, and why he should let you into heaven, then what will you say to him? No matter what it is, you are now at the point apart from choosing. You can only respond, and then , you will be sent to hell. I will be welcomed in, not because of something I worked for, not because I am perfect, but because I simply accepted the Saving Grace of Jesus.

You are correct. But what if you find another God (there are and were thousands in human history) at the pearly Gates? What will you say to Him to convince Him to send you to Heaven? You are so sure that you picked the right one, but how can you be?

You can reply that you have a personal experience with Jesus, but so have muslims with Allah.

The trigger of my deconversion was exactly that. I simply applied my skepsism towards other religions (e.g. Islam) to my own (Chritianity).

I could not find any compelling reason to dismiss Islam, Hinduism, etc. and accept Christianity, so I decided to dismiss all of them. The only thing I could see is that I was a Christian because I grew up in a Christian family; if I were born in Jemen, I would be a muslim.

And I never said that your faith is wrong, I consider it just very unlikely. What is wrong is trying to prove it logically or mathematically, we can't.

And that is why it is called Faith.

Yes you have. In so many words From your Losing my religion thread. You did not start about proving it logically, you stated it was wring because God was evil, and because you were unhappy with your life.

From your thread losing my religion.

I start agreeing with my family. I am not sure I am losing faith for a loving God, but maybe I have to look

for Him outside the Bible.

What I am saying is that it does not look like we need to accept Jesus to live happily.

My family consists of staunch atheists (all of them) and they are much happier than me. I don't know

how to explain this, but they look like they are .... liberated. I am going through a spiritual crisis right now,

whose outcome is unknown.

No. That is why I got so shocked when I read about all the violence that It contains. And it looks like God approved and promoted most of this violence. If I had read it in its entirety, I would have had doubts before.

I feel like I have been cheated by my parents and my pastor.

Before you said all that you came in here, saying how you were a Christian with a crisis of faith, who believed that the bible was the" inerrant word of God"

But I have to say, I went back and reread all your posts that you made before stating you were loosing your religion. Almost every post, with very few exceptions was either frontal or a veiled attack on Christianity.

So by this, I presume you were never a Christian and came here with ulterior motives, since you have never shown that you were outside of making some statements that Christians make all the time, including some statements that are on our own boards statement of faith.

Also you have changed your tune, or avoided responding every time I made a logical point that you could simply not disprove.

Here you finally admit that you cannot prove something, and then you try to say thats not what you were doing.

First you said in a nutshell, Something came from nothing and that you had proof. I proved that that was impossible even with your proof, you then tried to prove it using a different method, and then when that did not work you finally admitted that something always had to exist, and what that something was was faith based.

Now you are saying something that a true atheists would say, why is Christianity the only way. Trying to change the topic again. Funny though I have a long post in the works addressing that issue so I will not go into it here.

Tell me though, are you also on Muslim, Hindu, Mormon, and Buddhist websites trying to undermine there beliefs as well? Or is it only Christianity.

The point is this. You belive that in your blind faith in evolution, and so called science (so called because true science does not twist facts to predetermined outcomes) Is the only logical belief system. I am sure thats what you have thought for many years. What brought you here, now is unknown, but perhaps you were feeling some holes in this logic.

Can I prove God 100% logically. But the book I suggested does a good job of it. That book bye the way, does not quote much if any scripture.

You see with me, I have looked at evolution and atheism, logically and found it to hard to belive, to many holes in the logic, to many "Happy" accidents to make it seem that any reasonable person would believe in it. I could not fathom everything to work so perfectly by chance. From the plants converting sunlight and dirt into food and being co2 scrubbers for the planet, to the way the weather system brings water thousands of miles away to where its needed, to the way life sexually reproduces, perfectly working, all by mistake, all by accident, I could not handle.

I also was taught, all of the other major belief systems have taught. I was told that to leave Christianity if I thought they were the truth. So I did, I looked at each one and realized that they all had some major issues that did not make sense. (again another long thread coming)

So I choose to stay with Christianity. You see most of the kids I grew up with, that went to church with me, have all decided to walk away. You see I chose all this, with my intellect at the age of around 15.

I have been happy with my choice. Has life been hard? Yes. has everything gone perfectly, far from it. But through it all, even my darkest points, even when one time I was feeling suicidal, with a sword pointed at my heart, about to drive it home, did a peace keep me. Not happy, but a peace and a deep joy that kept me from the brink.

Also, its not just that I choose a "religion" replete with rules and regulations, this is what you are against I think, but I choose a relationship with the Creator of everything. You see the difference is this. Religion is like an arranged marriage, you do it because you HAVE to do it, you have to follow the rules whether you want to or not. In some cultures if you divorce out of your arranged marriage, the brothers of the bride will be within there right to beat you or kill you.

In a marriage based on relationship, and Love, you have the same rules, yes, but you do them not because you have to, but because you love your spouse, and you do not want to hurt them.

You see, if you were a Christian before, it sounds like you were in an arranged marriage. No love, no understanding, no real relationship. If you were the questions about God and who he is and why he did what he did in the Bible, would be more clear and make more sense.

Again I would invite you to a relationship with the creator God. You will find everything you have been missing, and that is not just happiness on earth that goes away. But a deep and ever present peace and underlying joy that keeps you through the darkest of days.

This is what I am inviting you into.