Why Choose Christianity?

[A Muslim]

Yes, it's Samarra, I was just copying the Arabic pronunciation as I didn't know the English one, actually the city is ancient, what you mean by building during the Abbasid Caliphate this was a rebuilding, you can see the history of the city here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samarra

LOL - English translations of Arabic words are all about how someone interprets the sounds, since we use different letters. But I did read the wikipedia site previously; the way you explain it wasn't coming across clearly, for it didn't mention a previous city being there. That's why I was confused.

So is it ok now?

OK, I think we are both talking past each other.

You are correct, I did miss your point about love.

But you still haven't mentioned how a heart is transformed. It takes more than choice of will to do that.

Of course it's not just a choice of will, but a blessing from God:

58 O mankind! there hath come to you a direction from your Lord and a healing for the (diseases) in your hearts,- and for those who believe, a guidance and a Mercy. 58 Say: "In the bounty of Allah. And in His Mercy,- in that let them rejoice": that is better than the (wealth) they hoard.

But what do you mean by the word " how "? Well, this can come by many ways, reading the Quran deeply, praying to Allah humbly, knowing my weakness and my need to Him, by supplication to Him to accept me. Of course these things must be made with all my sense not as a routine for God to accept it.

[Guest shiloh357]

Of course it's not just a choice of will, but a blessing from God:

58 O mankind! there hath come to you a direction from your Lord and a healing for the (diseases) in your hearts,- and for those who believe, a guidance and a Mercy. 58 Say: "In the bounty of Allah. And in His Mercy,- in that let them rejoice": that is better than the (wealth) they hoard.

But what do you mean by the word " how "? Well, this can come by many ways, reading the Quran deeply, praying to Allah humbly, knowing my weakness and my need to Him, by supplication to Him to accept me. Of course these things must be made with all my sense not as a routine for God to accept it.

So how do you know when you have done enough? How do you know when your heart is transformed? How much praying and Ouran study does it take to accomplish this?

[A Muslim]

That's because I often have a hard time putting words to what I want to say, and this is one such case, and so I meant to get back to it, but by then the conversation had shot so far off I forgot. My apologies.

I do not mean to negate rewards and punishments. I simply disagree that these are meant to be the primary motives. Yes, such things help when it comes to making choices and weighing options, but if these things are what one relies on he will fail.

This is what I'm having difficulty explaining - in the Christian faith, our lives are not about doing good over doing evil. That is not the focus. Deeds are considered to be manifestations of what is in one's heart. Thus, our focus is about the renewal, cleansing, healing, and transforming of the heart. Sure we have to make choices; I do not deny that. But what matters most is developing a relationship with God the Father through Jesus His Son by the power of the Holy Spirit (loving God above all things), and what matters second is loving your neighbor. "Good deeds" then are expressions of such love. Doing good for the receiving of rewards is considered selfish and not God-honoring.

I agree with your concept and that's what I kept focusing on when I said that no one can work for rewards or fear when he doesn't have faith or love as this is the head, if the head is cut nothing could work, if a man doesn't have faith he will neither love nor work for rewards as he won't have faith in rewards because he can't see or imagine them. You actually clarified the point more when you said that rewards and punishments help when it comes to making choices and weighing options. But the case for the other part of the sentence is that he can never rely on them alone, because if he doesn't have love he won't have faith in rewards or punishment.

OK, but can you share a personal testimony of a transformation that has occurred in your life, the way I shared? I would be most interesting in hearing this.

Well, in Islam we have like seasons for refreshing our hearts, either by time like Ramadan, a month whom we fast all, and the season of pilgrimage. They can be places as Mecca or Medina or Al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, I haven't visited the later yet. But what I wanted to say is that these seasons helped me so much and you can say that they changed my life, I went on a visit to Mecca and Medina, afterwards there was Ramadan, I began thinking that there is a reason for my life, I wasn't created haphazardly, I wasn't that bad before, of course I had more sins whom I stopped afterwards, what I mean is that I began realizing that my life must be dedicated to Allah. Of course I don't say that I stopped sinning afterwards, but I became more alert, and began to take actions to avoid sins. And I really saw that what is mostly affecting is what I have said before, reading Quran, praying and supplicating to Allah knowing that all these are blessing from Allah not due to my own efforts.

I will continue later

[A Muslim]

Of course it's not just a choice of will, but a blessing from God:

58 O mankind! there hath come to you a direction from your Lord and a healing for the (diseases) in your hearts,- and for those who believe, a guidance and a Mercy. 58 Say: "In the bounty of Allah. And in His Mercy,- in that let them rejoice": that is better than the (wealth) they hoard.

But what do you mean by the word " how "? Well, this can come by many ways, reading the Quran deeply, praying to Allah humbly, knowing my weakness and my need to Him, by supplication to Him to accept me. Of course these things must be made with all my sense not as a routine for God to accept it.

So how do you know when you have done enough? How do you know when your heart is transformed? How much praying and Ouran study does it take to accomplish this?

I never said that it will be enough because it will NEVER be enough as all my works are nothing compared to Allah's blessings, but I should do good deeds as much as I can till I die and God will send me to Heaven by His mercy not by my works.

[A Muslim]

I never said that it will be enough because it will NEVER be enough as all my works are nothing compared to Allah's blessings, but I should do good deeds as much as I can till I die and God will send me to Heaven by His mercy not by my works.

God is merciful, but He is also righteous. Iniquity can not be tolerated, so how is this made right? How can one go from this life to the next without God's righteousness being satisfied?

And if iniquity can't be tolerated, why did Jesus forgive the adulterer? And why was it said in Ezekiel:

Eze 18:21"But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Eze 18:22None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live.

You'd better see this link and go through the conversation to get the full answer to your question, that's what I have been saying for a while.

https://sites.google.com/site/christismuslim/didhedieforus

[A Muslim]

Does Allah declare you righteous before you you live out righteousness?

Sorry, I cannot get your point?

Let me post the quote again:

"As a Christian, I have already stood in the docket and have been declared righteous.

I have been to the judge and my account has been settled.

I put my faith in Christ and he imputed to me his righteousness and I stand before God justified on that basis and that basis alone.

My works will be judged one day, and I will be rewarded proportionately for my service here on earth, but I will NEVER stand to be judged for salvation. That decision was made a long time ago, and according to Jesus, I will not come into judgment, but have passed from death to life.

I have been redeemed from the curse, my sins were nailed to the cross with Jesus and He bore them away, Himself.

I am no longer separated from God, but am in union with Him through Christ."

And what if you were back to sinning or that you sinned and didn't repent? What will be your case?

We as Muslims believe that faith is a belief and work resulting from that belief, and as good deeds increases of course if there were for the sake of Allah only not anything else, this means that faith increases and at the same time sins decrease faith unless repenting. There is a minimum for Muslim in faith which is the main belief that Allah is one, but actually works affect faith not just rewards or punishment, because if a man does a sin, he cannot have done it if he restored God's mightiness and that He was watching him doing the sin, he believes in God, but his faith was incomplete during committing that sin. If someone loves a friend of him or his wife or anyone else to the extent that may lead him to commit a sin or stop doing something good , then this means that his faith is incomplete because he should love no one more than Allah, and so on.

You see, to understand Christianity, you have to understand the Hebraic roots from which it came. According to the Law God gave to Moses, sin had to be paid for by the blood of a sacrificial animal. The blood became the atonement for the person's sin.

It may have happened that Jesus made some allusions to the concept of dying for people's sins in the NT, but actually these allusions and so brief in a manner that doesn't meet with a major belief. Besides, I still see this theory against reason and I have asked many questions about it through early posts. Also, I still see that some verses don't match with that point as John 17:4 and verses in Ezekiel talking about forgiving sins, besides I don't see Jesus gave a link between this theory and the OT.

What if he struggled with the terror of it, but it just wasn't recorded?

The whole context of the story shows that the probability of something like that to happen is so weak if it exists. Actually, if you read the story, you will realize that he was the only Muslim in the story, there were no other Muslims around him who attended the crucifixion, all those who witnessed it were the idolaters who were in hostility with Muslims. Those who narrated this story were some of these idolaters who converted to Islam afterwards. This makes me think that they told what they saw when he was an enemy of them, and their account was really amazing.

The Gospels were letters written in the first century, two of them by Jesus' disciples. The creeds are something different.

So I ask again, why would the disciples and later followers of Jesus record the agony Jesus went through if they thought it expressed weakness? Can you conceive that they considered it to be expressing something else?

Actually if I believed that the Bible was really written by the disciples I would have accepted it, because I believe that the disciples were righteous people and all Christian creed you believe today came afterwards by corrupt people who corrupted the real message of Jesus and his disciples. We may talk about this in more detail later.

In the prophets, every time the cup was mentioned (see here and here) it refers to one having to partake the wrath of God.

Well, I see that this is the cup of anger drank by the enemies of God illustrating God's wrath, so it is actually taken by sinners or by God's enemies as a result of their sins. Now, was the Father angry of Jesus?

If someone in Israel had called God "Allah" - he either would have been given funny looks - for that name/word is Arabic, and the people there and then spoke Aramaic and and in Hebrew with regards to the Scriptures (thus calling God by a foreign name would not have made sense to them) - excommunicated as if he were a Gentile (non-Jew), and/or stoned for blasphemy. In any event, no one ever would have followed him, and no one would ever have recorded his words.

Actually, if you looked at any Arabic Bible, the word God is written "Allah". In Aramaic, the word for God is Alaah, you can see it here:

http://learnassyrian.com/aramaic/church/church.html

If you saw THE Passion of Christ, JESUS CALLED GOD: ALLAH:

[A Muslim]

The need for an atonement?

* For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 6:23) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous. (Rom 5:19)

* But when Christ had become a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building nor by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered once for all into the Holies, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling the unclean sanctifies to the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ (who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God) purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause He is the Mediator of the new covenant, so that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, those who are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. (Heb 9:11-15)

Why didn't Jesus tell that instead of Paul? You'd better see my link here:

https://sites.google.com/site/christismuslim/didhedieforus

[A Muslim]

I never said that it will be enough because it will NEVER be enough as all my works are nothing compared to Allah's blessings, but I should do good deeds as much as I can till I die and God will send me to Heaven by His mercy not by my works.

God is merciful, but He is also righteous. Iniquity can not be tolerated, so how is this made right? How can one go from this life to the next without God's righteousness being satisfied?

And if iniquity can't be tolerated, why did Jesus forgive the adulterer? And why was it said in Ezekiel:

Eze 18:21"But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Eze 18:22None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live.

You'd better see this link and go through the conversation to get the full answer to your question, that's what I have been saying for a while.

https://sites.google...m/didhedieforus

Apparantly you missed my question. Once again, How can one go from this life to the next without God's righteousness being satisfied?

I didn't miss your question, I don't see God's righteousness unsatisfied. If a man made a sin and then faithfully repented, God will forgive him, this concept is present in Islam, in the OT and in the NT as I illustrated in the examples I mentioned above.

[Jorge S]

Why didn't Jesus tell that instead of Paul? You'd better see my link here:

https://sites.google...m/didhedieforus

It was written. He came to fulfill what had been prophesied of Him from Genesis (3:15) to Malachi (4):

* Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to destroy but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, Till the heaven and the earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any way pass from the Law until all is fulfilled. (Mat 5:17-18)

They knew Messiah was coming. They knew what Messiah was all about:

* But when Herod the king heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born. And they said to him, In Bethlehem of Judea. For so it is written by the prophet, … (Mat 2:3-5)

* He first found his own brother Simon and said to him, We have found the Messiah (which is, being translated, the Christ). (Joh_1:41)

* The woman said to Him, I know that Messiah is coming, who is called Christ. When He has come, He will tell us all things. Jesus said to her, I AM, the One speaking to you. (Joh 4:25-26)

* He said to them, But who do you say I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. Jesus answered and said to him, You are blessed, Simon, son of Jonah, for flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but My Father in Heaven. (Mat 16:15-17)

Some believed Him, some did not. Some were a faithful remnant, some were not. As it was written:

* But He answered and said to them, Well has Isaiah prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, "This people honours Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. However, they worship Me in vain, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Mat 7:6-7)

* And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which said, "By hearing you shall hear and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see and shall not perceive; for this people's heart has become gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and they have closed their eyes, lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." (Mat 13:14-15)

* And the Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. And He found in the temple those who sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the money-changers sitting. And when He had made a scourge of small cords, He drove them all out of the temple, also the sheep and the oxen. And He poured out the money-changers' money and overthrew the tables. And He said to those who sold doves, Take these things away from here. Do not make My Father's house a house of merchandise. And His disciples remembered that it was written, "The zeal of Your house has eaten Me up." (Joh 2:13-17)

Therefore, He spoke in parables:

* And the disciples said to Him, Why do You speak to them in parables? He answered and said to them, Because it is given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven, but it is not given to them. Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not; nor do they understand. (Mat 13:10-11)

* ... Master, we want to see a sign from you. But He answered and said to them, An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign. And there shall be no sign given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the huge fish, so the Son of Man shall be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Mat 12:38-40)

Until such a time when His full revelation would be preached:

* I have spoken these things to you in parables, but the time is coming when I shall no more speak to you in parables, but I will show you plainly of the Father. (Joh_16:25)

* You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you and ordained you. And when the Comforter has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He shall testify of Me. And you also shall bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning. (Joh 15:16, 26-27)

He taught He had to die, though; as it was written:

* This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. No one has greater love than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. (John 15:12-13)

* The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day. Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory? And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. (Luk 9:22, 24:26-27)

* Jesus said to them, Did you never read in the Scriptures, "The stone which the builders rejected, this One has become the head of the corner; this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes?" (Mat. 21:42)

As for Paul, he was ordained to bear witness:

* ... For this one is a chosen vessel to Me, to bear My name before nations and kings and the sons of Israel. (Act 9:15)

And his writings were considered inspired, therefore, Scripture; that is, Jesus was talking through him:

* And think of the long-suffering of our Lord as salvation (as our beloved brother Paul also has written to you according to the wisdom given to him) (2Pet. 3:15)

* For prophecy was not borne at any time by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke being borne along by the Holy Spirit. (2Pet. 1:21)

[nebula]

Hi A Muslim -

I thank you for your well-thought out responses. But unfortunately, I am no longer going to be able to put the time in needed to continue discussion. Basically, I am juggling too many responsibilities at this time.

But from what I am seeing with this debate, it seems that we all are merely going in circles around each other.

The problem is we are debating the merits of our faiths while our cores are at odds. But it is the cores we each are holding onto, not the merits.

You see, we regard the Bible to the same degree you regard the Koran, and we have no more regard for the Koran than you do the Bible.

Likewise, we have no more regard for Mohammed than you do for the Apostle Paul and those you are convinced "corrupted the Bible" - which we are convinced did not happen.

In the same vein, I can tell that our understandings of what makes sin "sin", its severity, and what it takes to be dealt with are quite different.

And it seems our views of God's relationship with man and man's relationship with God is also different.

And it is clear that neither of us are going to convince the other that our perception is the correct way while the other is wrong.

All I can say, in the end, is that Jesus revealed Himself to me - through dreams, visions, the manifestations of His presence, and speaking to my thoughts. One time when I was feeling very low about myself, I asked Him why He loves me. And He answered with an illustration that was very personal to me, something that would make sense to me. It isn't something I would conceive of or fathom, but it is so real!

Have you ever gotten a personal word from Allah? Has Allah ever spoken directly and personally to you with words, thoughts, visions?

I know what it is to operate in the spiritual gifts. The only thing more exciting that another person prophesying over you is to be used of the Lord to prophecy into another person' life.

Have you ever been given a prophetic word to give to another?

I know what it is to encounter the presence of the Lord so strong that the weight of His glory put everyone on the floor, literally.

Have you ever encountered that?

These are reasons I cannot be swayed by fine-sounding arguments. They have no life in them. And so this is where I stand.

Blessings!