Why Choose Christianity?

[A Muslim]

The verse from Ezekial is about a fair and unfair judgment. Men think we can do good a little while and then deserve the right to indulge ourselves in wickedness. God says this is unfair since it clearly patronizes God in a false worship.

Did the OT say so?If it did, where?

The Christ is the True Image of the True God. In one post you talked about what you think of God. There is God in the Christ so what do you think?

Which post do you mean? Sorry, but I can't get your point.

[A Muslim]

OK, I see I misunderstood what you said. My apologies

But to go back to what started this - why do you need to know what rewards you are promised?

Jesus told us to store up for ourselves treasures in Heaven. Now we can imagine what those "treasures" are. But what if Heaven is so glorious that mere descriptions of those rewards would not suffice?

Really, why does "knowing the reward" make one religion more superior or more genuine than another?

I am quite content with being surprised.

Ok, no problem. As for the rewards, I was just asking what did the Bible tell about it because this was something new to me.

As for knowing the rewards, well not necessary that we know all the rewards, nor can we imagine them. But knowing rewards may help, as it may help man resisting the sin, I may stop drinking because I know that I will have much better in Heaven and so on.

The judgment given concerning works is about rewards, not about salvation. That is the key difference.

Agree.

I didn't say that.

The verse you cited is talking about external loss from Jesus or from God, this is not what I am talking about. I am talking about loss of salvation due to sinning, a man sinned and didn't repent, your answer was:

But is salvation permanent or can salvation be lost? The Lord knows, and anyone who chooses such a gamble is a fool.

So you are simply saying it is a gamble meaning that this guy may lose salvation.

I know what salvation is by what the Scriptures say.

I think this was your quote and it seems I put it in a wrong way.

Were they allowed to remain in or return to the Garden of Eden? Did they bear no penalty for their sin? Were their eyes re-closed to their nakedeness?

They were sent down to Earth and I think this is an enough penalty. As for the last question, I don't get it.

[A Muslim]

Although Jesus never said the words, "I am the sacrifice of the OT," He did say things that alluded to this.

And do you think allusions are enough for a main Christian creed like that? Jesus even said that it wasn't the reason God sent him to Earth for:

Joh 17:4 I glorified thee on the earth, having accomplished the work which thou hast given me to do.

This was before crucifixion, isn't it? Why did Jesus say that he accomplished the work the Father given to him?

First there is the testimony of the angel who said, "She will bear a Son ; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." (Matt. 1:21)

Next there is the testimony of John the Baptist who said:

John 1:29 - The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"

All these are not the quotes of Jesus. Besides, I see them all as general words just telling that he came to help people stop sinning and having their past sins forgiven, otherwise, sins haven't really stopped either by Christians nor by others after Jesus.

Jesus said:

"I am the good shepherd ; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." (John 10:11)

According to what I see in the context he is just saying that he is really loyal to his message and he has no problem to die for it.

"No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father." (John 10:18)

Well, I think he is metaphorically speaking, since he said before crucifixion:

Mat 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: abide ye here, and watch with me.

Mat 26:39 And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.

If this was really the reason why he came, would have he been that sad and sorrowful, and keep on prayer and asks God to take that cup away from him, isn't he supposed to be waiting for that moment, not to ask God to get it away?

Finally look at what he said on the cross:

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

So he clearly accuses God that he left him, as if he (God?!) was surprised by this or that God betrayed him, is that logical? Don't he know why he is there?

Hebrews 10

Sorry, but I don't realize how this answers my question, can you paraphrase it in your own words please?

"No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father." (John 10:18)

I am sorry again, but could you tell me how this is relevant to my question? Also in your words please.

[nebula]

But to go back to what started this - why do you need to know what rewards you are promised?

Jesus told us to store up for ourselves treasures in Heaven. Now we can imagine what those "treasures" are. But what if Heaven is so glorious that mere descriptions of those rewards would not suffice?

Really, why does "knowing the reward" make one religion more superior or more genuine than another?

I am quite content with being surprised.

Ok, no problem. As for the rewards, I was just asking what did the Bible tell about it because this was something new to me.

As for knowing the rewards, well not necessary that we know all the rewards, nor can we imagine them. But knowing rewards may help, as it may help man resisting the sin, I may stop drinking because I know that I will have much better in Heaven and so on.

Choosing to obey the Lord for the hope of unknown rewards takes more faith than working towards known rewards. Do you trust Him enough to have rewards for you that will bless your socks off?

But it also has the benefit of assisting you in focusing your eyes off of the reward and onto Him - where it needs to be to begin with. When you are content with a deeper relationship with Him being your reward, to be closer to Him, then you will know the joy of living "the greatest command,"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength."

And besides, not having the rewards written means that perhaps the Lord reserves rewards that are specific to each person's desires, and not general ones that not everyone may prefer as much as something else.

As for what Jesus said about rewards:

Matthew 5:12 - "Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great ; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Matthew 6:4 - so that your giving will be in secret ; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

Matthew 6:6 - "But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

Matthew 6:18 - so that your fasting will not be noticed by men, but by your Father who is in secret ; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

Matthew 10:42 - "And whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water to drink, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward."

Luke 6:35 - "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return ; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High ; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.

Matthew 16:27 - "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.

[nebula]

I didn't say that.

The verse you cited is talking about external loss from Jesus or from God, this is not what I am talking about. I am talking about loss of salvation due to sinning, a man sinned and didn't repent, your answer was:

But is salvation permanent or can salvation be lost? The Lord knows, and anyone who chooses such a gamble is a fool.

So you are simply saying it is a gamble meaning that this guy may lose salvation.

While Jesus says that none can be snatched out of His hand, He also says branches that do not bear fruit are cut off.

Does that mean not bearing fruit is evidence one was not truly grafted into the Vine to begin with? Or does it mean your adoption as a son or daughter of God is revoked? (I know I'm mixing metaphors, but I don't know how else to effectively describe it.)

I am hesitant to claim one over the other.

But if someone confesses faith but continues to live their lives as if they are still their own god, I would seriously question the what "faith" means to them, and if they actually meant it.

As for "losing salvation for sinning," Jesus said there is only one unforgivable sin, and that is "blasphemy of the Holy Ghost."

Sins like addictions, bad attitudes, harboring grudges, etc. - there is no evidence one would "lose salvation" over such things.

Were they allowed to remain in or return to the Garden of Eden? Did they bear no penalty for their sin? Were their eyes re-closed to their nakedeness?

They were sent down to Earth and I think this is an enough penalty. As for the last question, I don't get it.

The story we have is that when the Man and the Woman (Adam and Eve) at the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, "their eyes were opened," and they saw that they were naked. So they sewed fig leaves together to cover their nakedness. When they heard the voice of the Lord, they hid from His presence. When the Lord confronted them about this, they blame-shifted their actions (Adam blamed "the woman that You gave me," for giving the fruit to him to eat, and the woman blamed the serpent for deceiving her). So the Lord cursed the serpent, cursed the woman with the pain of childbirth and that her desire would be for her husband, and cursed the ground on account of Adam. Then the Lord made garments of skin for them to replace the leaves, and He banished them from the Garden of Eden to prevent them from partaking of the Tree of Life.

[nebula]

Although Jesus never said the words, "I am the sacrifice of the OT," He did say things that alluded to this.

And do you think allusions are enough for a main Christian creed like that?

If one knows the prophecies He was fulfilling one understands.

Luke 24

13 And behold, two of them were going that very day to a village named Emmaus, which was about seven miles from Jerusalem. 14 And they were talking with each other about all these things which had taken place. 15 While they were talking and discussing, Jesus Himself approached and began traveling with them. 16 But their eyes were prevented from recognizing Him. 17 And He said to them, "What are these words that you are exchanging with one another as you are walking ?" And they stood still, looking sad. 18 One of them, named Cleopas, answered and said to Him, "Are You the only one visiting Jerusalem and unaware of the things which have happened here in these days ?" 19 And He said to them, "What things ?" And they said to Him, "The things about Jesus the Nazarene, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word in the sight of God and all the people, 20 and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to the sentence of death, and crucified Him. 21 "But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, it is the third day since these things happened. 22 "But also some women among us amazed us. When they were at the tomb early in the morning, 23 and did not find His body, they came, saying that they had also seen a vision of angels who said that He was alive. 24 "Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just exactly as the women also had said ; but Him they did not see." 25 And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken ! 26 "Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory ?" 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

Jesus even said that it wasn't the reason God sent him to Earth for:

Joh 17:4 I glorified thee on the earth, having accomplished the work which thou hast given me to do.

This was before crucifixion, isn't it? Why did Jesus say that he accomplished the work the Father given to him?

You need to read this in context. Jesus' prayer begins with:

"Father, the hour has come ; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You," (vs. 1)

Do you know what He meant by "the hour has come"?

First there is the testimony of the angel who said, "She will bear a Son ; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." (Matt. 1:21)

Next there is the testimony of John the Baptist who said:

John 1:29 - The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"

All these are not the quotes of Jesus. Besides, I see them all as general words just telling that he came to help people stop sinning and having their past sins forgiven, otherwise, sins haven't really stopped either by Christians nor by others after Jesus.

Again, this is not what salvation is about.

Salvation is about atonement. Overcoming sin is a different matter.

[nebula]

Jesus said:

"I am the good shepherd ; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." (John 10:11)

According to what I see in the context he is just saying that he is really loyal to his message and he has no problem to die for it.

No, it is a prophetic declaration.

"No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father." (John 10:18)

Well, I think he is metaphorically speaking, since he said before crucifixion:

You need to read a verse in the context in which it was spoken.

14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father ; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold ; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice ; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. 17 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."

You also need to compare His words about laying His life down with other things He said:

Matthew 16:21 - From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.

Matt. 17: 22 And while they were gathering together in Galilee, Jesus said to them, "The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men ; 23 and they will kill Him, and He will be raised on the third day."

Matt. 20: 17 As Jesus was about to go up to Jerusalem, He took the twelve disciples aside by themselves, and on the way He said to them, 18 "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem ; and the Son of Man will be delivered to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn Him to death, 19 and will hand Him over to the Gentiles to mock and scourge and crucify Him, and on the third day He will be raised up."

since he said before crucifixion:

Mat 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: abide ye here, and watch with me.

Mat 26:39 And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.

If this was really the reason why he came, would have he been that sad and sorrowful, and keep on prayer and asks God to take that cup away from him, isn't he supposed to be waiting for that moment, not to ask God to get it away?

While He is fully God, He is also fully man.

Philippians 2

Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

As a man, He had to deal with all the limitations we have to deal with. And what he knew He was about to go through was very hard. He knew He had to face betrayal, rejection, whipping, the crucifixion, and bearing the sin of the world (Isaiah 53). Something like that would be difficult and tormenting for anyone to face.

Know also that in emptying Himself, He was seeing the future from the perspective of a human, not from the perspective of God

Finally look at what he said on the cross:

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

So he clearly accuses God that he left him, as if he (God?!) was surprised by this or that God betrayed him, is that logical? Don't he know why he is there?

Jesus was quoting Psalm 22.

Because the people were required to memorized the Scriptures from youth, all the people would recognize a passage by a mere reference. Thus, it was a common practice for rabbis to speak an entire Psalm by simply mentioning the first verse.

Thus, one can see that Jesus was speaking for the benefit of the Jews who were there to recall Psalm 22, which was very prophetic concerning His death:

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Why are you so far from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning?

2 O my God, I cry out by day,

but you do not answer, by night, and am not silent.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;

you are the praise of Israel.

4 In you our fathers put their trust;

they trusted and you delivered them.

5 They cried to you and were saved;

in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,

scorned by men and despised by the people.

7 All who see me mock me;

they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

8 "He trusts in the LORD; let the LORD rescue him.

Let him deliver him, since he delights in him."

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;

you made me trust in you even at my mother's breast.

10 From birth I was cast upon you;

from my mother's womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,

for trouble is near and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;

strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

13 Roaring lions tearing their prey

open their mouths wide against me.

14 I am poured out like water,

and all my bones are out of joint.

My heart has turned to wax;

it has melted away within me.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,

and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;

you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs have surrounded me;

a band of evil men has encircled me,

they have pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I can count all my bones;

people stare and gloat over me.

18 They divide my garments among them

and cast lots for my clothing.

19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;

O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

20 Deliver my life from the sword,

my precious life from the power of the dogs.

21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;

save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my brothers;

in the congregation I will praise you.

23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!

All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!

Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

24 For he has not despised or disdained the suffering of the afflicted one;

he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;

before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows.

26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;

they who seek the LORD will praise him--

may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,

and all the families of the nations will bow down before him,

28 for dominion belongs to the LORD

and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;

all who go down to the dust will kneel before him--

those who cannot keep themselves alive.

30 Posterity will serve him;

future generations will be told about the Lord.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn--

for he has done it.

[methinkshe]

As far as I'm concerned, there is only one answer to the question posed in the OP: why choose Christianity? It is found in John 15:16.

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

[Believer112]

Hi all

So as you are saying that works don't save us but only faith through Jesus, does this mean that there is no need to work, do good deeds and avoid sins? Does it mean that anyone can commit sins as long as he believes that Jesus will save him? Does it mean that a man who is believing that Jesus will save him and doing good deeds will be equal to a man who also believes in salvation through Jesus but he is not doing the good deeds the former man does?

There is no need to work, do good or avoid sins to keep God from loving us. We are saved by God's grace thru faith in Jesus. As our relationship with God develops, good works come naturally. When saved we are all equal in God's eye's, God see's Jesus in each one of us. HE is no respecter of persons.

Avoiding sins all has to do with how much we love God. We tend to sin because we love ourselves more than God or anyone else. Most sin comes from our selfish desires or whats in our heart. Siblings sometimes work to gain their fathers approval. They'll actually do mean things to each other to get it. Bottom line it's all done for personal gain which is selfishness.

My God is a God of LOVE. God created each one of us and It doesn't make any sense that He would have us kill one another to be with Him, does it? Our religion teaches us that the battle is not against flesh and blood but against spiritual forces.

[A Muslim]

But to go back to what started this - why do you need to know what rewards you are promised?

Jesus told us to store up for ourselves treasures in Heaven. Now we can imagine what those "treasures" are. But what if Heaven is so glorious that mere descriptions of those rewards would not suffice?

This is not the point, but many people cannot imagine them so if they knew generally about what these rewards are, and of course not all of them, this may help them resist their temptations, as the example I gave for alcohol for example, if a man knew that in Heaven he would have a pure non harmful wine, if he was tempted to drink it, this may help him overcome this temptation. For example, you may say to your child, if you stayed away from eating others' food, I will get you a better food.

And besides, not having the rewards written means that perhaps the Lord reserves rewards that are specific to each person's desires, and not general ones that not everyone may prefer as much as something else.

Of course this is not the case, as in Heaven God will give us all what we want, and rewards promised are usually common ones between all people.

As for what Jesus said about rewards:

Ok

But if someone confesses faith but continues to live their lives as if they are still their own god, I would seriously question the what "faith" means to them, and if they actually meant it.

This is not necessary the case, he may know that he is sinning, but he can't leave the sin because he is weak.

As for "losing salvation for sinning," Jesus said there is only one unforgivable sin, and that is "blasphemy of the Holy Ghost."

Sins like addictions, bad attitudes, harboring grudges, etc. - there is no evidence one would "lose salvation" over such things.

So if someone repented from blasphemy of the holy ghost, what would be his case? How do you define the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost?

If one knows the prophecies He was fulfilling one understands.

Why didn't Jesus tell the people about these prophecies if he really meant them? Now neither he said that he is the sacrifice or the atonement of the OT nor did he talk about the prophecies in the OT telling about it but these were said after his resurrection, what was he saying?

You need to read this in context. Jesus' prayer begins with:

"Father, the hour has come ; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You," (vs. 1)

Do you know what He meant by "the hour has come"?

Well, according to the context, he talked about the works he accomplished which was revealing the Father to people know(vs. 6 and after), and he didn't talk here about salvation through his death which was supposed to be the main mission he came for, neither did he talk about dying for the world.

The hour that has come, he seems to talk about glory through resurrection to God, but that doesn't mean that he was talking about dying for the people's sins. And may be he looks at martyrdom to be glory.

Again, this is not what salvation is about.

Salvation is about atonement. Overcoming sin is a different matter.

That raises my questions again concerning that issue. Please don't give me the verses you quoted before alone, tell me what you mean by citing these verses and how are they relevant to my question:

Besides, there are many questions concering that point. Now it is supposed that God wants to give people salvation and forgive them without restricting them with the atonement, what is need that He becomes a man and humiliates Himself when He can just send a lamb? You actually said it, He didn't kill Himself for Adam and Eve, He sent an animal. The Old Testament didn't say that the atonement will be God Himself, but in most cases it was a lamb, and He could have easily redeemed people like what He did with Abraham and his son. I see that this is against God's mightiness, God doesn't die and doesn't pain from people who worth compared to His creation. I see this as a blasphemy that shows that God can do nothing except that He Himself dies.

The second thing, who killed Jesus? Were they sinned people who wanted atonement? No, They were the Jews who fought Jesus and killed him as an opposition to his message. So they were not actually giving atonement, they were sinning. How can a sin be an atonement for a sin? An atonement is supposed to be a good deed from a man who repented for his sin not from a man who is sinning by this atonement. So actually I don't see that this is a sacrifice for love, it is an action with no meaning, like if a man thinks that when he loves another, he expresses his love by killing himself with no need to sacrifice his beloved person.