Why Choose Christianity?

[A Muslim]

Well, I was about to give a more detailed reply but the post was lost, so this post may be a bit brief.

What does this has to do with God's Holiness? The need for an atonement?

The need for atonement is reflected in YHVH's love for us. If YHVH were nothing but holy, if that were the only attribute He possessed, there would be non atonement, no redemption. YHVH would simpy have destroyed Adam and Eve on the spot. YHVH, has multiple attributes that work in cooperation. What YHVH does, is judge sin while redeeming man. He can maintain His holiness and still operate in love and forgiveness.

So how did He deal with the sin of Adam? Did He forgive it?

[nebula]

Yes, it's Samarra, I was just copying the Arabic pronunciation as I didn't know the English one, actually the city is ancient, what you mean by building during the Abbasid Caliphate this was a rebuilding, you can see the history of the city here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samarra

LOL - English translations of Arabic words are all about how someone interprets the sounds, since we use different letters. But I did read the wikipedia site previously; the way you explain it wasn't coming across clearly, for it didn't mention a previous city being there. That's why I was confused.

[nebula]

You haven't mentioned love before, only external deeds.

And you certainly haven't talked about how a heart is transformed. People can be very good at "going through the motions" but those actions not changing the thoughts and intents of the person

Haven't I really mentioned it? I have been confirming it. See my message 24, message 35, my example of the bird.I have been confirming on saying that without love nothing can be achieved, but still we need other incentives.

OK, I think we are both talking past each other.

You are correct, I did miss your point about love.

But you still haven't mentioned how a heart is transformed. It takes more than choice of will to do that.

You haven't answered my question, if rewards are not important, neither fear is, why will God give rewards to the righteous and punish those who reject him?

That's because I often have a hard time putting words to what I want to say, and this is one such case, and so I meant to get back to it, but by then the conversation had shot so far off I forgot. My apologies.

I do not mean to negate rewards and punishments. I simply disagree that these are meant to be the primary motives. Yes, such things help when it comes to making choices and weighing options, but if these things are what one relies on he will fail.

This is what I'm having difficulty explaining - in the Christian faith, our lives are not about doing good over doing evil. That is not the focus. Deeds are considered to be manifestations of what is in one's heart. Thus, our focus is about the renewal, cleansing, healing, and transforming of the heart. Sure we have to make choices; I do not deny that. But what matters most is developing a relationship with God the Father through Jesus His Son by the power of the Holy Spirit (loving God above all things), and what matters second is loving your neighbor. "Good deeds" then are expressions of such love. Doing good for the receiving of rewards is considered selfish and not God-honoring.

Actually, I never "got rid of some sins". I have overcome, but I cannot credit this to myself. My ability to save myself is too weak.

I understand what you mean and agree with the concept, it's not man's effort, but God's blessing although we are asked to make effort, but we shall refer it God only that He gave us this blessing.

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying that Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, thus stated: I am near to the thought of My servant as he thinks about Me, and I am with him as he remembers Me. And if he remembers Me in his heart, I also remember him in My Heart, and if he remembers Me in assembly I remember him in assembly, better than his (remembrance), and if he draws near Me by the span of a palm, I draw near him by the cubit, and if he draws near Me by the cubit I draw near him by the space (covered by) two hands. And if he walks towards Me, I rush towards him.

OK, but can you share a personal testimony of a transformation that has occurred in your life, the way I shared? I would be most interesting in hearing this.

Not necessarily. Quite often those who self-motivated themselves out of temptation fall back into the sin when pressures pile on and their defenses and resistances are weakened.....

Actually if you have looked deeply at my last sentence you'd have understood what I meant, I said at the end that working for rewards or fear cannot be made without faith, otherwise there will be no interest for worship without faith, if the man is not deeply believing that there is Heaven or hell or that God is looking at him, he won't be motivated to do a good work or stop a sin. And all this doesn't come by the effort of man, but by God's blessing, and that's another meaning of the Hadith I gave above.

We're still talking past each other. You are not understanding what I am saying, either.

Well, but according to your speculation, he had a good intention although he did it through wrong means, and when he found that he was wrong, he remorsed, actually I see he gave the money back to the priests:

3 When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 4

[nebula]

Does Allah declare you righteous before you you live out righteousness?

Sorry, I cannot get your point?

Let me post the quote again:

"As a Christian, I have already stood in the docket and have been declared righteous.

I have been to the judge and my account has been settled.

I put my faith in Christ and he imputed to me his righteousness and I stand before God justified on that basis and that basis alone.

My works will be judged one day, and I will be rewarded proportionately for my service here on earth, but I will NEVER stand to be judged for salvation. That decision was made a long time ago, and according to Jesus, I will not come into judgment, but have passed from death to life.

I have been redeemed from the curse, my sins were nailed to the cross with Jesus and He bore them away, Himself.

I am no longer separated from God, but am in union with Him through Christ."

You see, to understand Christianity, you have to understand the Hebraic roots from which it came. According to the Law God gave to Moses, sin had to be paid for by the blood of a sacrificial animal. The blood became the atonement for the person's sin.

But even before this, the Lord gave to the Israelites the Passover celebration. In that, the people had to sacrifice a lamb whose blood was applied to the door frame above and to the two sides of the door. When the angel of death passed through the land, it would pass over those homes with the blood on the door frame. A lamb died so that the firstborn would not die. The blood of the lamb covered the people of the home from death.

At the last Passover meal Jesus shared with His disciples, Jesus took the matza (one of the elements of the Passover meal) and told His disciples, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me." And then later He took the cup of wine (another element of the Passover meal) and said, "This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins."

In this He was declaring Himself to be the fulfillment of Passover - His death would be for us, and His poured out blood would be for the forgiveness of our sins.

"... the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." (Matt. 20)

The judgment of God passes over us because He sees the blood of Jesus applied to the "door" of our lives. In this, we are declared righteous.

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent. . . . "I am the bread of life ; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst." (John 6)

"I am the resurrection and the life ; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies," (John 11)

1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away ; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5 "I am the vine, you are the branches ; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing " (John 15)

[Guest shiloh357]

So how did He deal with the sin of Adam? Did He forgive it?

Of course.

So His holiness and mercy operate in cooperation with no need for Jesus to die. He already forgave the woman with no need for atonement.

Of course, there was need of atonement. Jesus forgave sins all of the time. But His blood does more than that. His blood cleanses the conscience from guilt, shame and condemnation. That Jesus forgave sins under the OT economy doesn't mean that atonement was unnecessary. YHVH's mercy is always there, in the Old Testament. It was mercy that provided a sacrifical system. It was mercy that made it possible for man to be restored to a right relationship with YHVH.

There is no much difference, if Adam sinned, and through that sin he had a sinful nature, it's unjust that his seed inherits his sinful nature as they are not responsible for the reason of this nature which is Adam's sin. Besides, you are talking about Adam as if he is the reason for everything when God already forgave him.

It is not a matter of it being just or unjust. It is simply how it works. YHVH did not engineer it that way. Man chose to disobey and sin has built-in consequences. One of those consequences is that once Adam became sinful, that sinful nature was passed on to his descendents, just like we pass on traits to our descendents.

Adam IS the cause. It was Adam's disobedience that can be directly tied to sickness, pain, disease, death and decay. All of the violence, wars, they all can be traced directly back to Adam's disoebedience. YHVHforgave Adam, but that does not mean that the consequences go away.

Do you mean that all non believers have no morals at all?

No, what I am saying is that man is basically evil and sinful from birth, by nature. It is the nature of man to sin. A child will rebel, lie, be selfish without any training, without any connection to the outside world. It is their nature. Morals have to be instilled through teaching and discipline. Morals are learned, they are not inherent.

You are just trying to show that all human beings are thugs if they didn't believe that Jesus died for their sins.

No, I am saying that all human beings are sinners so long as they continue without Christ and all human beings without Christ will go to hell, no matter how good they are. In Christanity, it is not about being "good." No one is "good" in YHVH's sight. You are a sinner and you need salvation. If humans could be good enough to please YHVH on their own, Jesus would never have needed to die.

Yes, unbelievers must believe and must have faith, but that doesn't mean they have no morals.

Good thing I never said that. That is something you assigned to me. You are trying to refute an argument I never raised.

So where in the OT did it tell people to look ahead to the sacrifice? Do the Jews see that point? Are they waiting for a sacrifice for their sins?

There is no explicit commandment, but we have evidence that many OT saints did look ahead to Christ. The Bible says that the Gospel was preached to Abraham. The prophet Isaiah used sacrificial terminology when speaking of Jesus' sacrifice in Isaiah 53. We sometimes assume that they did not know why they were doing what they were doing, and that assessment may be incorrect. Modern Judaism is too far removed from the sacrificial system to be theologically equipped to understand its signficance.

So he lives without committing a sin and he is still a sinner, why?

Because you are sinner by nature. You are born separated from YHVH and under the sentence of death. That is what you are. No one goes to hell for what they do. They go to hell for remaining what they are.

Quote

That is because your mind is darkened and you do not know the truth. You can't see the truth because you worship a lie.

Well, insult is so easy, but I won't get involved in these childish actions.

It is not an insult. It is an accurate and biblical assessment of your spiritual condition.

[nebula]

It doesn't record exact time, but it seems through the narration that it's about 3 or 4 days. But it doesn't record that he was terrified at all, it talks even about miracles occurred during his imprisonment before crucifixion. When he was crucified, one asked him:" Do you like that Muhammad is in your place while you are sitting with your family?" He said :'By Allah I never want to with the children my wife and enjoy the pleasures of the world survived, despite being the Messenger of calamity hit by a piece of thorns ...!"

What if he struggled with the terror of it, but it just wasn't recorded?

As for your second question, they may have written so as they heard it. Actually the history of Christian creed is not clear and it seems it had been developed during the first 2 centuries.

The Gospels were letters written in the first century, two of them by Jesus' disciples. The creeds are something different.

So I ask again, why would the disciples and later followers of Jesus record the agony Jesus went through if they thought it expressed weakness? Can you conceive that they considered it to be expressing something else?

Mark 14:36 - And He was saying, "Abba ! Father ! All things are possible for You; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what You will."

Are you familiar with why Jesus called it, "This cup"?

Actually I am not, could you please tell me what you mean?

In the prophets, every time the cup was mentioned (see here and here) it refers to one having to partake the wrath of God.

By calling it "this cup", what else could Jesus be declaring other than that He was to be taking on the wrath of God through His death?

[nebula]

But I asked you what you believe the main issue issue of Christianity to be, not what you believe we believe. I know what we believe. I want to know what you believe it to be.

Never mind. As for our belief of the message of Jesus, let Jesus (Peace be upon him) talk about it:

50 "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me. 51"'It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'" (Holy Quran Surat Al Imran)

6.And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!" (Holy Quran, Surat Al Saff)

OK, we're obviously talking past each other again.

But I am puzzled by this.

If someone in Israel had called God "Allah" - he either would have been given funny looks - for that name/word is Arabic, and the people there and then spoke Aramaic and and in Hebrew with regards to the Scriptures (thus calling God by a foreign name would not have made sense to them) - excommunicated as if he were a Gentile (non-Jew), and/or stoned for blasphemy. In any event, no one ever would have followed him, and no one would ever have recorded his words.

So I do not understand how it is possible to believe that Jesus would have said to the people of Israel, "Fear Allah."

[Jorge S]

As an example, I was tempted with suicide for most of my life. The only reason I didn't follow through with the temptation was because Jesus showed me that it would cause Him pain if I did that. Deliverance came one night when the Lord was interacting with me about a verse in Scripture. To make a long story short, from that interaction He showed me how all the pain in my life had been and was being used for my good. In receiving this I was able to, for the first time ever, thank Him for the pain in my life. It was hard to speak it, but I did. As soon as I said that, literally, I felt a breaking of the bondage of darkness over my life. It was as if I had spent my entire life in a thick fog, and for the first time that fog was completely gone and I could see the sunshine! It was that dramatic. I have had no desire to put an end to my life ever since then.

So, no, I did not get rid of this sin. My God did!

AMEN!

Great testimony, sister.

[Jorge S]

The need for an atonement?

* For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 6:23) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous. (Rom 5:19)

* But when Christ had become a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building nor by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered once for all into the Holies, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling the unclean sanctifies to the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ (who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God) purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause He is the Mediator of the new covenant, so that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, those who are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. (Heb 9:11-15)

[Guest]

Never mind. As for our belief of the message of Jesus, let Jesus (Peace be upon him) talk about it:

50 "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me. 51"'It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'" (Holy Quran Surat Al Imran)

6.And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!" (Holy Quran, Surat Al Saff)

Let Jesus (My LORD And My God Forever, Bless His Holy Name) Speak For Himself

Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. John 10:9-11

And

Jesus said unto Her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: John 11:25AndJesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

And

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. John 14:1-3

So Dear One, Who Is The Truth?

But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. John 5:17-18

And Do You Know Jesus?

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. John 6:19-21

Really Know Jesus?

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. John 5:19-23

Do You Hear His Voice?

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. John 5:24-25

Or Will You Wait

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5:26-29

Until It's Too Late....

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36

Believe And Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe