luke22ministries Posted June 19, 2011 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 115 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/06/1974 Author Share Posted June 19, 2011 Hi Heatherfeather, Christ existence is a matter of historical fact. Some question if he was in fact the mesiah, (which can also be rubutted) however, the fact that he existed, walked the earth was crucified by the Romans was historically documented by several Romans including Flavus Josephus, one of the largest historians of that day. Many theologist believe that this is why God delived him to the Romans instead of King Herod, who would have had juristicion over Christ's life because of his coming from an area under his rule. Herod did not keep records, the Romans did. I can provide you websites that explain more about that if you would like. I think I found the right thread that I was looking for and hope that somebody can help me answer my questions. My cousin sent me to a webpage that says that Jesus wasn't real and they are really rude and dirty. I made the mistake to read some of it and now I feel really terrible and feel that my faith is weak. Can anybody give me some ideas about what to say to somebody who says that Jesus was not real? I wonder how this one page can make me question my lifelong faith in Christ. Your faith is the most valuable thing you have and needs to be treasured and protected. Going to atheist sites like that is not a wise way to protect your faith if you feel vulnerable in that area. There is a lot of historical evidence that Jesus is real and people who deny that are being intellectually dishonest. I will come back with some evidence of His existence on earth, in the mean time, I'm praying for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~candice~ Posted June 19, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 955 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 11,318 Content Per Day: 1.89 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 33 Joined: 12/16/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted June 19, 2011 Hi Candaice, My point wasnt meant to infer that there was literally 4,000 years between man and dinosaurs. In fact, I dont think the bible clarifies the time frame at all. My point was that the bible is specific about the fact that God's timing and our timing are not the same. So the fact that the bible says "on the 7th day he rested" cannot infer that 7 days would be 24 hour time periods. 7 days could in fact be millions of years. Darwinist use the 7 day period as a way of proving that the bible cannot be fact. However, the explainations can be found quite easily in the bible. Wouldn't that infer death pre fall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I clarified the first comment about in the response to Candice. My point was that the bible is specific about the fact that God's timing and our timing are not the same. Yes, but the Scripture you used had nothing to do with the context of creation. The reference was to fulfillment of prophecy. As far as the Luke verses, the bible doesnt specify that the travelers on the "Road to Emmaus" were disciples of anyone at all. As a matter of fact, it infers that they were just people interested in Jesus who thought he might be the true savior but were disappointed. . At least thats what I read when I read those verses. Yes, I got that the first time. You missed the point. You inferred that Nebula said that said that Jesus ONLY appeared to his disciples. I simply pointed out that Nebula did not say that Jesus only appeared to His disciples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke22ministries Posted June 19, 2011 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 115 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/06/1974 Author Share Posted June 19, 2011 Hi again, This is a very interesting argument. The question I suppose is...."did life actually die BEFORE Adam sinned and was cast out of the 'Garden of Eden'". In order to believe that this did not happen...you must assume that dinosaurs were actually a myth OR you have to assume that when the ice age that killed dinosaurs happened, man existed at that time and actually survived it. Either this...or you have to believe that when God said in the Garden of Eden 'If you eat of this tree you shall surely die', you must assume that he was speaking of a literal death. Of course, we know that didnt happen. In fact, Adam and his wife were cast out. Perhaps you guys could post your views on this, if you have an understanding of it. Hi Candaice, My point wasnt meant to infer that there was literally 4,000 years between man and dinosaurs. In fact, I dont think the bible clarifies the time frame at all. My point was that the bible is specific about the fact that God's timing and our timing are not the same. So the fact that the bible says "on the 7th day he rested" cannot infer that 7 days would be 24 hour time periods. 7 days could in fact be millions of years. Darwinist use the 7 day period as a way of proving that the bible cannot be fact. However, the explainations can be found quite easily in the bible. Wouldn't that infer death pre fall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke22ministries Posted June 19, 2011 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 115 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/06/1974 Author Share Posted June 19, 2011 Thank you for the clarification I clarified the first comment about in the response to Candice. My point was that the bible is specific about the fact that God's timing and our timing are not the same. Yes, but the Scripture you used had nothing to do with the context of creation. The reference was to fulfillment of prophecy. As far as the Luke verses, the bible doesnt specify that the travelers on the "Road to Emmaus" were disciples of anyone at all. As a matter of fact, it infers that they were just people interested in Jesus who thought he might be the true savior but were disappointed. . At least thats what I read when I read those verses. Yes, I got that the first time. You missed the point. You inferred that Nebula said that said that Jesus ONLY appeared to his disciples. I simply pointed out that Nebula did not say that Jesus only appeared to His disciples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsomebulldog Posted June 19, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 732 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 113 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/26/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/30/1971 Share Posted June 19, 2011 You know... when someone asks us a tricky question about our faith, they often expect us to answer on the spot. There is nothing wrong with telling them that this isn't something you've committed to memory, and you will do your research and get back to them. Then google apologetics articles like mad . I do it often. And while I am doing my homework, I give them some too. "Hey, why don't you read John 1 and we'll discuss it when we've finished talking about the hugely important issue of dinosaur toenails". Dino toenails! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~candice~ Posted June 19, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 955 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 11,318 Content Per Day: 1.89 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 33 Joined: 12/16/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted June 19, 2011 Hi again, This is a very interesting argument. The question I suppose is...."did life actually die BEFORE Adam sinned and was cast out of the 'Garden of Eden'". In order to believe that this did not happen...you must assume that dinosaurs were actually a myth OR you have to assume that when the ice age that killed dinosaurs happened, man existed at that time and actually survived it. Either this...or you have to believe that when God said in the Garden of Eden 'If you eat of this tree you shall surely die', you must assume that he was speaking of a literal death. Of course, we know that didnt happen. In fact, Adam and his wife were cast out. Perhaps you guys could post your views on this, if you have an understanding of it. Hi Candaice, My point wasnt meant to infer that there was literally 4,000 years between man and dinosaurs. In fact, I dont think the bible clarifies the time frame at all. My point was that the bible is specific about the fact that God's timing and our timing are not the same. So the fact that the bible says "on the 7th day he rested" cannot infer that 7 days would be 24 hour time periods. 7 days could in fact be millions of years. Darwinist use the 7 day period as a way of proving that the bible cannot be fact. However, the explainations can be found quite easily in the bible. Wouldn't that infer death pre fall? Romans 5 - death entered because of the sin of ADAM. There was NO physical death before Adam sinned. When Adam sinned, he immediately died spiritually (he was separated from God) and his body began to decay (dying you will die). There can't have been dinosaur death before the fall of Adam. So your interpretation of the dinosaur issue must fit into that framework. None of the three options you gave me, are what I believe. For what it's worth, when it comes to Dinosaurs, it is perhaps the most creative area of science. Just look up the history of the Brontosaurus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 This is a very interesting argument. The question I suppose is...."did life actually die BEFORE Adam sinned and was cast out of the 'Garden of Eden'". In order to believe that this did not happen...you must assume that dinosaurs were actually a myth OR you have to assume that when the ice age that killed dinosaurs happened, man existed at that time and actually survived it. Not really. The issue was brought up in another thread that we can probably get a pretty good idea about what life was like before Adam sinned by examining what life will be like when sin is eradicated and God restores and renovates the earth in Revelation 21 and 22. For the purposes of this discussion, you will note that there will be no more death... of anything. What we have in Scripture is a plan of redemption in which everything is restored. Revelation 21 and 22 are written in concrete terms. There is no symbolism there at all. Either this...or you have to believe that when God said in the Garden of Eden 'If you eat of this tree you shall surely die', you must assume that he was speaking of a literal death. Of course, we know that didnt happen. In fact, Adam and his wife were cast out. Perhaps you guys could post your views on this, if you have an understanding of it. Adam died the very minute he ate of the forbidden fruit. So did Eve. The minute he disobeyed God, he and his wife were separated from God, spiritually dead and under a curse and we inherited Adam's sinful nature, placing a sentence of death over the corporate head of humanity. He died, literally. Physical death is just a symptom of spiritual death, in a biblical framework. You are, without realizing it, challenging God's integrity by saying that Adam did not die as God said he would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~candice~ Posted June 19, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 955 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 11,318 Content Per Day: 1.89 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 33 Joined: 12/16/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted June 19, 2011 Not really. The issue was brought up in another thread that we can probably get a pretty good idea about what life was like before Adam sinned by examining what life will be like when sin is eradicated and God restores and renovates the earth in Revelation 21 and 22. For the purposes of this discussion, you will note that there will be no more death... of anything. What we have in Scripture is a plan of redemption in which everything is restored. Revelation 21 and 22 are written in concrete terms. There is no symbolism there at all. Adam died the very minute he ate of the forbidden fruit. So did Eve. The minute he disobeyed God, he and his wife were separated from God, spiritually dead and under a curse and we inherited Adam's sinful nature, placing a sentence of death over the corporate head of humanity. He died, literally. Physical death is just a symptom of spiritual death, in a biblical framework. You are, without realizing it, challenging God's integrity by saying that Adam did not die as God said he would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrClark Posted June 26, 2011 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 28 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/03/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted June 26, 2011 It seems like what started out as a thread about apologetics is slowly turning into a debate on creationism. Anyways, Shiloh (and the others in this same vein of thought)- I noticed you said you don't answer 'tricky' questions from unbelievers because they mock our faith. I understand not wanting to listen to people mocking something held so dear, but how can you be sure that mockery is what these people intended? I've had people who were genuinely curious ask me difficult questions about Christianity, and I never shy away from trying to answer. If someone is truly attempting to insult your faith I agree they shouldn't be suffered, but refusing to answer any such questions does more harm than good. Some people honestly find these difficult questions a stumbling block in their walk with God, and if we don't even attempt to reconcile them we come across as ignorant and narrow-minded. Heather - It's been my experience that those on secular forums do tend to be a bit more vulgar (with language at least). I agree with Candice, take a break from those boards if they are seriously causing you to doubt. Be careful though, don't completely insulate yourself from opposing viewpoints. It may seem paradoxical but I think one of the greatest things we can to do strengthen our faith is to question it. Think of it as a muscle. Our muscles only grow strong if we work them, our faith grows strong when we test it against conflicting ideologies. That way we can stand and say to those against us 'Yes I've heard and understand your arguments, and still I remain unconvinced. Not through blind assurances, but through reason and the courage of my conviction.' Cheers~! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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