Dragoon

Hi DF, Some general suggestions/observations (in addition to those already mentioned): - This is normal. There is an enemy, and when something furthers God's kingdom, the Accuser will be there. Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you. Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings. (1 Peter 5:6-9) - Do not be tempted to try to learn more about Satan. The answer is not to draw closer to Satan, but to draw closer to God ...be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil (Ro 16:19) - It's not our strength that defeats Satan, though we certainly are to resist him. The armour of God and the sword of the Spirit are not our property... they are God's. This is very clear in the Eph 6 passages that others have posted. I would also caution you about deliverance ministries should you be thinking about them, because it has been my experience that some are relying upon information from the very spirits they seek to oppose. I do think they are correct to counsel the removal of any cultic/spiritual items that may be in your surroundings, though I'm sure that the Holy Spirit has already prompted you in this. Get rid of all of them though. May the Lord give you strength DF, and praise God for drawing you into His family! Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. (He 12:10-11)

A passage that comes to mind is Gal 1:10 Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. I can find no place in scripture where we are commanded to have a special celebration to remember the Lord's birth to please God. It's not a bad thing though, and I would hope we celebrate the Lord's birth every day. In everything we do though, our eyes should be on our Lord Jesus Christ. I personally look on Christmas less as a celebration of Jesus' birth, and more as the one time in the year where non-believing friends and relatives are (more) willing to think seriously about Jesus and who He is.

Hi CJon, It's difficult to answer this question without knowing you much better. Perhaps this question would better be addressed by your pastor or an elder in your congregation who is more familiar with you? This doesn't mean I/we don't want to talk to you... because we do

Hello Oak, I think there are actually two parts to this question. A) Are we ABLE to pray for the dead (though I'm going to avoid the related "are we encouraged to pray for the dead") B) Are prayers for the dead effective in any way Part A: Scripture tells us that we are to "pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints" (Eph 6:18). It should be noted that this refers to living saints, but can be construed as a general call to pray perhaps even after death. Yet scripture also teaches that "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial" (1 Cor 10:23). We are to do all things for the glory of God. "Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God; just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit but the profit of the many, so that they may be saved." (1 Cor 10:32-33). In short, I don't think there's anything literally prohibiting prayer for the dead. But please keep in mind that closing passage from 1 Cor 10:32-33 as I'd like to bring it up later. PART B: I think the key passage for me here is in Hebrews. "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment" (Heb 9:27) The analogy here is to Christ, who came and died ONCE for our sins, not needing to die and be sacrificed over and over again. This would seem to imply to me that death is the end, and that any prayers after death are meaningless. Well meaning perhaps, but meaningless. If we truly desire to see men changed to an obedience and faith in Jesus Christ, then perhaps we should focus our efforts on them more fully while they are living (this is not to suggest that those who are faithful in praying for the dead were any less faithful in praying for the living). If we pray for the dead, we are in part feeding the false perception that man can go on sinning right till the end... because there will be an escape clause to free them from their actions. If they denied Christ by their lives, will they truly welcome and turn to Him at death? If Moses, the Prophets, and a Risen Christ did not move them.... If by our prayers to the dead, we place stumbling blocks to people coming to Christ in life, might I suggest that the practice is best discouraged? Certainly we are to love, and to love truly. But our first love should be for God and His glory. "Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God; just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit but the profit of the many, so that they may be saved." (1 Cor 10:32-33).

Hey Isaiah, this has become an interesting question for me, because what you're saying is what I'd always heard until I looked into it a little closer lately and found something that possibly complicates that assessment. Even in the link you submitted it states "while the name of the Moon-god was Sin, his title was al-ilah, i.e. "the deity"". The title 'Allah' supposedly means the most high god, similar to the phrase used by the Hellenists in relation to Zeus/Jupiter, which is language very similar to that used in the Bible "God Most High" (Genesis 14:20). So, if the moon god that predated Muhammad had a different name (Hubal) then is it accurate to suggest that it's title of primacy among gods is different than the title of the Most High God as seen in the first Century Roman Empire: "These men are servants of the Most High God" (Acts 16:17)? I've found the writings of missionary Don Richardson (Peace Child, Eternity in their Hearts, etc) interesting in this. In contrast to the social Darwinist view that Polytheism came first, and 'evolved' into Monotheistic beliefs, Richardson postulates that primitive understanding of God begins as Monotheistic, and becomes Polytheistic as Satan leads them astray. As we speak to non-Christian cultures, we should be able to point them back to their original beliefs, which while not being God, definitely point towards God. I may be misquoting him though, as it was several years ago that I read his books. I should revisit and verify

Many Muslims Have Recently Burned Holy Words And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: Genesis 15:17-18 Because Of Their Extreme Offense Over The Use Of Allah As A Name Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me. Matthew 11:4-6 For The God Of Grandfather Abraham And Isaac And Jacob In The Arabic Bible Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6 But Bible Believers Have Both Forgiven These Muslims And Are Praying For Them Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. Matthew 5:43-45 Praying To The God (Allah) Of Abraham In The Name Of His Son And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. John 14:13-14 The LORD Jesus Messiah Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47 ____________ _________ ______ ___ Thank You For Joining With Us At Worthy Boards As We Look Into The Things Of Allah, Of God Almighty And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. Matthew 17:1-9 And Dear One, Do Know You Are Loved And Treasured Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25-26 By Allah The God Of The Holy Bible For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 May You Be Deeply Blessed The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 Beloved Love, Joe Thanks Joe

Yes. It is an appeal to other gods. I'm glad you have certainty in your convictions on this Ayin Jade. Might I ask, what is the source of that certainty? Are there any scriptural passages that support it? When the god they pray to has attributes completely different than our Lord, then they are praying to another god. As for scriptural passages ... there are many in the bible that speak of how wrong the worship of false gods is. In post 21 in this thread, I posted a comparison of the difference between the allah of islam and our Lord. There is a clear and distinct difference. You note that Allah has attributes 'completely different' from the Biblical God, and therefor must be 'another' and false god. Looking over your list of attributes (from post #21) though, I think some of your points are incorrect. What sources are you using for these attributes? I certainly agree that Muslim understanding of God, especially in respect to Jesus, is incompatible with the Bible, but in speaking with Muslims (mainly Sunni, and usually of the al Hannifi school) several of your points seem to not match with what they believe. Specifically, points #1, 2, 7 (in terms of the hate). Many people who call themselves 'christians' would also say that God does not have many of these attributes (which would be clear rejection of Biblical teaching of course), but we would not say that they should not call their diety 'God'. Instead, we would seek to teach them what is true about God. My undestanding of the word 'God' and the word 'Allah' is that they are not proper names, but rather titles. Each refers not to a specific individual (ie Bob), but rather is the only title for the One unique being who created all things (ie 'mankind' if we're staying with the Bob metaphor). To say that Muslim understanding of Allah is not the same as Biblical Christian understanding of God is absolutely correct. But think on this... if I used any other title for YHWH in English other than God, what would it be? Would it add or detract from His glory to use any other word? We could use words from other languages certainly, but in English, is there any other word that would adequetely represent YHWH? Hi Dragoon, I'd say that we know that it's an appeal to another god because the Quarn says "Allah has not taken any son" (Surah 23:91), whereas the Bible says "whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also" (1 John 2:23). If one doesn't acknowledge the Son, they're fundamentally incapable of acknowledging, or even knowing, the Father, "no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him" (Matt. 11:27). Now, I wouldn't have a problem eating Hallal foods because the Bible says "So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one... But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do" (1 Cor. 8: 2-8), as long as no one around was going to stumble. I'm actually not too bothered whether people use the name Allah or not. I do think that there is a fair amount of poor or inaccurate information out there though, and would want Christians to base their decisions on what is truthful. Re:the Son I think there is a lot of room for Christian witness in this area though, specifically because the Muslim understanding of Biblical beliefs is most often wrong. Almost every Muslim I've spoken to on this subject thus far (about 30 total) has thought that 'Son of God' meant that God had physical sexual relations with Mary. I can only affirm that this would be blasphemy for Christians as well. That acknowledgement of the Son is the key point. I've found that clear resting and trust in the Bible builds trust with Muslims, but in the end they ask for some proof that the Bible and/or Christ are truly from God. Please pray for visions and dreams to guide them, as they place much value on these.

Yes. It is an appeal to other gods. I'm glad you have certainty in your convictions on this Ayin Jade. Might I ask, what is the source of that certainty? Are there any scriptural passages that support it? When the god they pray to has attributes completely different than our Lord, then they are praying to another god. As for scriptural passages ... there are many in the bible that speak of how wrong the worship of false gods is. In post 21 in this thread, I posted a comparison of the difference between the allah of islam and our Lord. There is a clear and distinct difference. You note that Allah has attributes 'completely different' from the Biblical God, and therefor must be 'another' and false god. Looking over your list of attributes (from post #21) though, I think some of your points are incorrect. What sources are you using for these attributes? I certainly agree that Muslim understanding of God, especially in respect to Jesus, is incompatible with the Bible, but in speaking with Muslims (mainly Sunni, and usually of the al Hannifi school) several of your points seem to not match with what they believe. Specifically, points #1, 2, 7 (in terms of the hate). Many people who call themselves 'christians' would also say that God does not have many of these attributes (which would be clear rejection of Biblical teaching of course), but we would not say that they should not call their diety 'God'. Instead, we would seek to teach them what is true about God. My undestanding of the word 'God' and the word 'Allah' is that they are not proper names, but rather titles. Each refers not to a specific individual (ie Bob), but rather is the only title for the One unique being who created all things (ie 'mankind' if we're staying with the Bob metaphor). To say that Muslim understanding of Allah is not the same as Biblical Christian understanding of God is absolutely correct. But think on this... if I used any other title for YHWH in English other than God, what would it be? Would it add or detract from His glory to use any other word? We could use words from other languages certainly, but in English, is there any other word that would adequetely represent YHWH?

Yes. It is an appeal to other gods. I'm glad you have certainty in your convictions on this Ayin Jade. Might I ask, what is the source of that certainty? Are there any scriptural passages that support it?

Puts all his science textbooks into the dumpster...

"And it's an alarming issue for Christians because the Bible warns against eating food previously dedicated to idols." "The allah of islam is not the God we worship. Allah of islam is a false god. That is why it is a big deal." --- To help the discussion; Allah is not a personal name, but rather the arabic word for God. Absolutely the Muslim understanding of God is different than the Christian one, but as Jigger notes, "Arab christians and even a jew that speaks arabic wld say Allah. The same as a spanish person would call God, Dios or a french person would call God, Deu." The question is, if a person's understanding of God is different than the Biblical one, is their using of the title 'Allah' thus an appeal to 'other gods'? The form of the prayer said in the Halal ceremony is; "In the name of Allah" (though some may add "...the Beneficent the Merciful". This addition is seen as wrong by many Muslims, but in conversation with the son of a person who conducts the Halal ceremony, I was told that this is what his father says.)

Yes, I believe the Church is the Catholic Church because there is an unbroken line of leaders all the way back to the apostles. However, even if you don't agree that this Church is the Catholic Church you can still see that Jesus established a single, authoritative body and gave this body leaders with a commission. He told us to listen to their message. We can see in Acts 15 that the Christians in Antioch recognized this authority and did not attempt to create doctrine on their own. As to your last comment, Mormons, Jim Jones, David Koresh, and many others preach Christ. Why don't you follow them? My last comment was, "Instead of arguing about the 'church', perhaps it would be more beneficial to be preach Christ?" So, merely because some people preach Jesus falsely, you think this somehow absolves you of the need to preach Christ? Which kinda leads to a second problem. If the 'church' you are advocating does not preach Christ, does it really matter what pedigree or claims they have? I repeat Chesterton... Instead of arguing about the 'church', perhaps it would be more beneficial to be preach Christ?

Thank you! I doubt I will have much time in the next few weeks to contribute. Sorry for the interruption once again on the evolution debate. One other question. How do I create a separate thread that I may invite Happy, Dragoon, OldEnglishSheepdog and anyone else interested to continue the discussion on the evidences for Islam verses Christianity? I'm a little distracted by work at the moment, but if you send a message to me through my profile, I'd be glad to continue the discussion with Happy Forever. As OES has mentioned, she is having some difficulty starting a new thread, and thinks that she is banned.

I note in John chapter 17 among the many theological gems there a prayer of the Messiah to the Father that there be unity in the body of believers A unity that he harped on in the text and compared to the unity in the Godhead itself. A unity the Church has not known for nearly 17 centuries. The reason we have so many denominations is not so much the proper fitting to an individual's own preferences or comfort, but because mere mortal men keep trying to reinvent the wheel... from all the other worldly manifestations depicting how mere mortal men have determined the Church of God should be. We have the blueprint in the Bible. But because people do not take the Bible to heart or do not believe it is the final court of arbitration which God set it up to be... then it's a matter of interpretation based on the opinions, experiences, and traditions concocted by mere mortal men (and women). My wife and I have been in and a part of many denominations over the past 5 decades. And all seem to echo the Roman Imperial take over in the 4th Century CE which the Church has never fully recovered from. Briefly, Constantine (who died a sun worshiper) saw in outlaw Christianity a cohesiveness his crumbling empire sorely lacked. He may not have envisioned the way the Roman Empire itself morphed into a religion (that which outlasts kings and kingdoms, emperors and empires a religion specifically the Roman Catholic Empire), but Constantine saw it possessed what his empire lacked and desperately needed; cohesiveness. He and his mother set out to build a religion with a fervor most religionists possess regardless the trueness of their path. Despite these interferences many Christian doctrines found their way to the light of day since they were and are so biblical. But regarding Church structure and those sort of doctrines... well, the emphasis on extrabiblical writings and traditions (to the point of precedent over scripture) is indication itself as to the error of those doctrines. For one thing, the Church was never meant to be set up as an us and them function (clergy / laity). For we are all priests before God (1 Peter 2:3-9 Revelation 1:6 / 5:10). We are not all pastors but we are all priests in our various ministries. And we are to congregate not cathedralize (which often passes off as the total fulfillment of our spiritual obligation and duty to Christ and just parking our pork in the pew is not the fulfillment of our ministries at all). I agree with others here that Messianic Judaism comes the closest to the first century Church, but even it has the cathedralization taint here and there from the traditions of men which Jesus himself said nullifies the Word of God. This is rubbish. You know very little about the history of the Church. Matthew 16 17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Matthew 18 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. Luke 10 16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." John 20 21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." 1 Timothy 3 15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. 2 Thes 2 15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. 1 John 1 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. 1 John 4 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood. John 17 20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. Not rubbish. Truth. Let's look at the record. John 17 (KJV) 1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. 24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. 26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. No recitation of apostolic authority (which died with the eyewitnesses of Jesus death and resurrection btw) and has since been placed in the scriptures themselves 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 (KJV) 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. Psalm 138:2 (KJV) 2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. What you seem to be missing in John 17 is that Jesus clearly separated the role of the leaders of the Church from those who will follow their message. We don't all have the same role in the body of Christ. Jesus established a visible orgainzation with leadership, authority, and a commission. My rubbish comment referred to your fictional history of the Church. Hello again Chesterton, I think you're confusing the 'church' with the Roman Catholic Church. If you choose to confine yourself to its teachings, that is your choice and I pray that God guide you. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord and Him alone. When I look for the 'church', I'm looking for the body of Christ, and the strange thing is.... God is not limited by our conceptions of who He should use or who He will call to Himself. It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. (Phil 1:15-18) Instead of arguing about the 'church', perhaps it would be more beneficial to be preach Christ?

Salaam Alaikuum Happy, Please continue to write, but I may be away for a day or two. I'm a little behind with work God's Grace and Peace be with you all.