LuftWaffle Posted November 21, 2011 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 820 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 7 Joined: 01/09/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted November 21, 2011 But I couldn't accept, as some atheists argue, that His non-existence should be the default position. Hi Izzy, how would then be your default position if you were born in Saudi Arabia or in Sweden at the time of the Vikings? Ciao - viole Viole, this argument is still as fallacious as the first 3(or is it 4?) times you've tried it. No doubt, Izdaari Eristikon would have worshipped the same God as she does now, she just wouldn't have known the details. In other words she would have come to realise that the cultural gods (Viking or whatever) as well as atheism is untenable and that there must be a true God Who would provide a way unto salvation for mankind despite man's sin. As such Izdaari Eristikon would have been like those in Acts 17:23 "For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you." Also, your loaded question does nothing to show atheism as a default position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftWaffle Posted November 21, 2011 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 820 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 7 Joined: 01/09/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted November 21, 2011 I never said that her default position would be atheism. Then your response irrelevant, as it was anyway But I am pretty confident that the default position of a Viking was to believe in Thor and Odin, at least up to the point when the first missionaries declared the alternative unto them. I'm pretty unimpressed by your confidence. If that had not been the case, why do you need missionaries or Paul's and Luke ministry at all? For those who wrongly believe in false gods or atheism. Really Viole, what are you getting at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftWaffle Posted November 21, 2011 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 820 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 7 Joined: 01/09/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted November 21, 2011 I know this is a response to viole but I'm curious about the part that I bolded. How would Izdaari necessarily "come to realize" that these other gods would be untenable and that there "must be a true God" who provides salvation? Who said, necessarily? The often used question, "what would you believe if you were born in Viking times or Saudi Arabia?" is a loaded question. It assumes that the person to whom the question is posed would have believed in some cultural god, yet there is no way for the questioner to know this. The burden of proof is on Viole to show that Izzy would have believed in Thor or whatever, since that's what the question assumes and thus what Viole indirectly asserts. In short the question is actually making an assertion, and as I have said before, atheists need to prove their assertions just as much as anybody else. I'm lost on that. Agnostos Theos was specific to the Greeks I'm not sure what that would have to do with Izdaari if she were born into the ancient Norse culture. Please read again what I said, "As such Izdaari Eristikon would have been like those in Acts 17:23". Also why can't the God who was unknown to those Greeks not also be unknown to some Vikings? Notice the problem with your objection? By the very definition that the God in Acts is UNKNOWN, means that it's not specifically a Greek concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftWaffle Posted November 21, 2011 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 820 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 7 Joined: 01/09/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted November 21, 2011 Yes, How can you know the details of Christianity, if you never heard of them? Please read again what I wrote, "...would have worshipped the same God as she does now, she just wouldn't have known the details" It all boils down to the following (I know, I already addressed this) : either you need external help to understand the true nature of God or you don't. This is a false dilemma. A third and fourth possibility is God revealing Himself either directly or through creation itself. If you don't, then you do not need missionaries, Paul, Luke, holy books, etc. if you do, then your salvation depends on being at the right place and at the right time (and being able to read Greek, which was unusual at that time in Scandinavia). Did Abraham know how to read Greek? Yet He knew that God would provide a way unto salvation, even though he didn't have the details of God's redemption plan. By that faith Abraham was saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UndecidedFrog Posted November 21, 2011 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 2 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,063 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted November 21, 2011 The burden of proof is on Viole to show that Izzy would have believed in Thor or whatever, since that's what the question assumes and thus what Viole indirectly asserts. In short the question is actually making an assertion, and as I have said before, atheists need to prove their assertions just as much as anybody else. This is wrong. Viole's question contains no assertion. Viole's question was: how would then be your default position if you were born in Saudi Arabia or in Sweden at the time of the Vikings? It is a simple question that asks for one's default position, and does not assert anything. It is a simple question that asks for one's defauilt position, and does not assume anything. Regards, UndecidedFrog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftWaffle Posted November 21, 2011 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 820 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 7 Joined: 01/09/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted November 21, 2011 I didn't think viole was trying to demand or prove that Izzy would follow the Norse gods That's precisely what the question is meant to suggest. The truth is, culture does play a huge role in religion. Is that why you decided to be an atheist? So you're saying that whatever god Izzy would have been introduced with by her culture it would have been irrelevant because she just wouldn't have had the "details" on who the actual one true God is? Jesus seemed to be kind of a stickler about these kinds of details no? I mean the God you're describing sounds nice but it doesn't sound biblical. Nope, that's exactly what I'm not saying. I said, "In other words she would have come to realise that the cultural gods (Viking or whatever) as well as atheism is untenable and that there must be a true God " We're starting to tread to an area where Jesus doesn't really matter, just so long as you believe there was some god out there that created the Universe etc. I know Paul may have given people a benefit of the doubt in his travels but I'm not so sure Jesus is quite as carefree. I never said Jesus doesn't matter, and I never implied that either. Jesus is the very Object of what the prophets hoped for. 1Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftWaffle Posted November 21, 2011 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 820 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 7 Joined: 01/09/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted November 21, 2011 It is a simple question that asks for one's defauilt position, and does not assume anything. Viole said in response to the answer (which was not the answer she was hoping for), "But I am pretty confident that the default position of a Viking was to believe in Thor and Odin". It's really quite obvious that it was a loaded question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftWaffle Posted November 21, 2011 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 820 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 7 Joined: 01/09/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted November 21, 2011 That's precisely what the question implies. The chances would be high that she would have followed the Norse traditions. What were the chances of Paul becoming a Christian? I was raised in a Christian family, I identified myself as a Christian until maybe age 29 or 30. I decided to read the Bible starting from Genesis, by the time I got to Deuteronomy I started to ask myself some questions. A year or two later I left the Christian faith. How old are you now, if I may ask? I'm not trying to be difficult but I'm not sure I understand why she would be so special that she would obviously be able to see through the nonsense of those Norse gods and somehow instinctively KNOW that there's a one true God out there yet to be discovered. You're shifting the burden of proof here. Viole suggested that she'd worship the Norse gods because she'd be raised in Norse culture. The burden of proof is on those making that suggestion. You stated that she may not know the details of the one true God, isn't "Jesus" the detail(s) that you're referring to? You're making a common mistake that many unbelievers make. It is not unbelief in Jesus that sends a person to hell, it is sin. So logically if a person who never hears the Gospel, commits no sin whatsoever such a person would go to heaven. For those who have committed sin, God provided a sufficient sacrifice. The prophets foresaw it and believed it and were saved, even if they didn't know the name "Jesus" or the details of the crucifiction. Likewise it is my belief that no person who truly seeks God, no matter where they are, won't find Him... If they truly seek Him. If you read my testimony you'll see that, even though I didn't even want the Christian God to be true, I kept returning to Christianity because I sought the truth and that's where it lead and now I know He is real for I have encountered God. Do you understand why Jesus died on that cross? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftWaffle Posted November 21, 2011 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 820 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 7 Joined: 01/09/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted November 21, 2011 Pauls conversion occurred after the crucifixion on the road to Damascus, so apparently the odds were decent. What would you say his default position was, though? Again I didn't get the sense that Viole was talking about absolutes, it sounded like he was talking odds. What are the odds a child will grow up as a Christian being raised in Alabama? What are the odds they'll turn out as a Hindu? If neither you nor Viole was talking about absolutes then why don't either of you accept the answer I gave on Izzy's behalf? In the end you can't really calculate the odds of any individual having a certain faith. You grew up in a Christian home yet you're an atheist. Mistakes are easy to make when you hear very different things from other Christians. I thought all had fallen short of the glory of God, who is going to walk this earth and not sin? No I don't mean Jesus. I didn't say that there are people with no sin, all I said was that if somebody didn't sin they'd go to heaven. That conditional is by no means contraditory to the scriptural claim that all have sinned. Can I take it that you agree that all people have sinned, since you say, "who is going to walk this earth and not sin?" Which prophets are you referring to? Pretty much all the authors of the Bible were prophets. This includes people like Moses as well as book writing the prophetic books. While I don't discount your testimony or the idea that you've encountered God, I didn't. I've never experienced anything that even hinted to there being a supernatural world. Now at one time I did believe, I had a child like faith but this never resulted in any net evidence that I placed my faith in something real. Well if you truly seek the truth then perhaps my testimony will be an encouragement to you. If you're not really seeking, but only set on rejecting Christianity, then my testimony will be the ramblings of a fool. Let me ask you something: if you could know the truth, would you accept it knowing that you'd have to submit to it? I'm also curious, why did you choose not to answer this question: "Do you understand why Jesus died on that cross?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted November 21, 2011 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,416 Content Per Day: 8.00 Reputation: 21,575 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted November 21, 2011 While I don't discount your testimony or the idea that you've encountered God, I didn't. I've never experienced anything that even hinted to there being a supernatural world. Now at one time I did believe, I had a child like faith but this never resulted in any net evidence that I placed my faith in something real. Perhaps it is the battle that you do not understand: Our bodies and the cosmos is not redeemed and lies are permeated throughout them both. It is belief in His Word (Jesus) that we are created within unto a new birth... this Spiritual reality becomes war with the flesh for the lies it still maintains. You simply listened to your flesh and the world around it! Holiness in new birth is like a membrane which evil and good cannot interact/mix with one another. There is no confusion in the Spirit and total confusion in the flesh and world. It was your flesh that demanded from God, Who 'IS' Spirit, proof other than His Word alone. You may say it is only right due to the fact it is all I have known and been born into... but God's Word says we were born into a world of sin, into bodies aligned with that world! Therefore if we are to find God, we must first start by believing He is, and that He is to be found outside of ourselves and this place of lies that says He is not! The simple beginning is that before all that we have experienced- God Was and all that is, if by only believing He 'IS' , will testify to this reality... a reality of Spirit and Faith in His Word and Truth. There is no other way to Him but through His Son, 'The Living Word', which the written Word testifies of salvation in no other than Him alone! I suggest you reevaluate your search parameters on how to find truth- Jn 14:6 6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. NKJV Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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