removing a church family from church

[Smalcald]

I don't totally disagree ruck.

I would just disagree about what Paul is talking about. I mean yes it is better to be married than not to be married if you are having relations, this is true. Paul was speaking about those who would choose to serve God as their sole purpose in life and not marry to better serve God, as Paul did. He was saying as Christ also said, not everyone can handle that and it is better to marry than spend your life lusting.

I have seen too many young marriages pushed by parents or the couples who simply and mainly want to have sex, and they usually end in divorce. If you start your marriage that way it is doubtful that you will marry for life. The number one predictor of divorce is not being a Christian or not, it is if you get married young or not. We have a responsibility in the Church to turn this tide around, the seeds of divorce are present at the wedding. Every Church should have mandatory pre-marital Christian classes and every Church should demand that couples who wish to marry in their Church refrain from fornication prior to marriage, at least once they start pre-marital classes.

Some Churches may love their sheep enough to do that.

[j102]

Hello my extended friends, yea its been a while.

What Im looking for is just feed back, we get all types here so i want to run this by you all and see what say you.

A few months ago I had to remove a family from our church. A year ago had a young couple want to get married by me. I told them sure and sat with them to let them kow what needs to done in order for it to happen. At first they where good with what needed to happen. two weeks go by and I had not heard from them, i would see them and ask how is everything going, they said fine. Not to long after that we have our yearly fathers day outting I found out that they got an apartment together and had been living together for a few months now. I told them I could not marry them now. I still allowed them to come to church. The young lady has an older brother who has been coming to our church for years and was one of my leaders. I found out that he had been telling his sister that living together was not a sin, since they were getting married any way! I had no Idea he had this view. I talked with him and he just disagreed with not scripture to stand on. So I waited a while. During this time I find out that they are going to church members to discuss this and were dividing the church and people, new people would just walk up to and ask me about cohabitation and other questions about our fellowship, it was just odd. So I get an oppertunity to deal with both of these and asked them to stop speaking against me and our church, they refused, so i removed them from our church for promoting sin in their sisters life and causeing division in the church. I went to my pastors above me and they were divided on my choice. i have no regrets, but this was very hard to do. What say you?

without any more details on this matter i'll just say this the "church" has made up alot of commandments and rules that arn't really bibicly based.

it was mentioned that they were living together. However that does not mean by default that they are sleeping togather ( i know some would claim that its immoral because they would be tempted, but as it is written "even where sin abounds, grace abounds more and more, grace to stand up against temptation not to think that its ok to sin) and even paul and peter had women with them as they spread the gosple.

and also many others, myself included have found out by personal experience that the church sticks its noses where it just simply doesn't belong and by doing so causes strife and heartache leaving things worse rather than better.

and yes there is something called church discipline but it must be based on scripture and even then let scripture interprite itself in it proper context

[j102]

Just a question - Is the church for sinners or for Christians?

I think of Christ eating with the sinners not with the Pharisees. You have no idea what the rest of your congregatiion is doing behind closed doors - are they the real upstanding citizens of the congregation that you think they are? Christ came to save the very ones that you asked to leave your congregation. I would have befriended them and got them to marry as soon as possible. It seems to me that just by asking the question you are not certain that you did the right thing as do others of your congregation. That couple could have been nutured into a ministering couple for your church. Why judge them as harshly as you have? I guess for me the church is for sinners who need to be shown the love of the Father.

I'm going to have to agree with you here, Littlelambs. The church is for EXACTLY people like this young couple. Yes, they sinned but....who hasn't? I would be afraid that tossing them out might turn them from the Lord. Just my two cents and no refunds.

i also have to agree

"let him who is without sin throw the 1st stone"

im also reminded of what paul said when it comes to marrige "rather let them marrie rather than burn with lust"

and as i see it, when it comes to pastors, most modern "churches" has allocated more power and authority to pastors than what scripture dictates.

[e lansing]

Hello my extended friends, yea its been a while.

What Im looking for is just feed back, we get all types here so i want to run this by you all and see what say you.

A few months ago I had to remove a family from our church. A year ago had a young couple want to get married by me. I told them sure and sat with them to let them kow what needs to done in order for it to happen. At first they where good with what needed to happen. two weeks go by and I had not heard from them, i would see them and ask how is everything going, they said fine. Not to long after that we have our yearly fathers day outting I found out that they got an apartment together and had been living together for a few months now. I told them I could not marry them now. I still allowed them to come to church. The young lady has an older brother who has been coming to our church for years and was one of my leaders. I found out that he had been telling his sister that living together was not a sin, since they were getting married any way! I had no Idea he had this view. I talked with him and he just disagreed with not scripture to stand on. So I waited a while. During this time I find out that they are going to church members to discuss this and were dividing the church and people, new people would just walk up to and ask me about cohabitation and other questions about our fellowship, it was just odd. So I get an oppertunity to deal with both of these and asked them to stop speaking against me and our church, they refused, so i removed them from our church for promoting sin in their sisters life and causeing division in the church. I went to my pastors above me and they were divided on my choice. i have no regrets, but this was very hard to do. What say you?

without any more details on this matter i'll just say this the "church" has made up alot of commandments and rules that arn't really bibicly based.

it was mentioned that they were living together. However that does not mean by default that they are sleeping togather ( i know some would claim that its immoral because they would be tempted, but as it is written "even where sin abounds, grace abounds more and more, grace to stand up against temptation not to think that its ok to sin) and even paul and peter had women with them as they spread the gosple.

and also many others, myself included have found out by personal experience that the church sticks its noses where it just simply doesn't belong and by doing so causes strife and heartache leaving things worse rather than better.

and yes there is something called church discipline but it must be based on scripture and even then let scripture interprite itself in it proper context

Maybe you should read the first 6 pages of this thread before you express things like "proper context". The passage that you are claiming in terms of "where sin abounds, grace abounds more" is used out of context in this situation, again you might want to read at lease the first six pages of this thread, then you might better understand, you might not agree but at lease you would understand the full context of this situation.

e

[e lansing]

As a side point I think to quickly marry a couple for the sole reason that you want to bring them out of fornication is a major cause of divorce. Covering sexual sin is not a good enough reason to marry in my opinion.

A better way to prepare for marriage would be to practice purity for a period before marriage. This helps make marriage more special, it also shows commitment. If a couple cannot commit to practice purity for a couple of months prior to marriage how can they be serious about the major challenges they will face as a couple over their lifetime together?

I understand what you are saying also, but I think about what Paul says. It is better to marry than to burn. I believe that they should be married, rather than just left in that sin. I do believe it was a good move to remove them if they were causing divsion within the Body. But before that happened they should have been married.

This is interesting actually because I think that passage is often misused because celibacy among Christians has gotten such a bad name, but it is something that St. Paul was a proponent of for some people (not all). Here is the whole passage you are referring too.

"Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me:

It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2 Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. 3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 But I say this as a concession, not as a commandment. 7 For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that.

8 But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; 9 but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion."

St. Paul was not assuming that these people were already having sex, he was talking about the choice for lifetime celibacy or not. St. Paul himself choose that route. Yes if you cannot handle making a commitment for a life without a companion it is better to marry than to sit around thinking sinful thoughts your whole life to burn in lust.

I think this is essentially a different situation than someone in fornication who is refusing to repent. I think they should be married IF they want to make a lifetime commitment to one another under God, to do this I would say that they should walk in purity during their engagement.

One of the reasons that divorce is such a problem among evangelicals in my opinion is the idea that it is better to quickly marry two young people, rather than for them to have sex outside of marriage. The only reason they are getting married is to have sex, and that is a horrible reason to get married if that is the main reason two people are getting married.

Sorry, who added passion. I will keep it as it stands in the KJV. Its better to marry than to burn. I understand what you are saying, but the reason for divorce in general is because eph is not lived. Christ is not there, and simply people are selfish. You don't know how long this couple has been together, neither have I. But if they are going go be doing the do and they want to get married, marry them so their bed wont be defiled.

It is from the new King James I think it is an accurate translation of what is meant.

But even if it is not and it means you will burn in hell; the point is they are refusing to stop prior to marriage this is a different situation than the decision to live a lifetime of celibacy as Paul did or to marry. If you marry a couple simply because they are refusing to stop fornicating even for a month, this to me shows they are not ready for Christian marriage anyway and of course have not repented of their sin.

Why would a couple not agree to stop fornicating during their engagement period at least? It would say to me that they don't really believe it is wrong just like any other sin we willfully refuse to repent of. Marriage will not cure that and in fact will set them up for divorce which is not better than the situation they were in prior to the marriage.

This was a discussion I had with a few other pastors in terms of marry for the sake of making it right with God or even allowing it at all because of the attitude that was being displayed. I sided on wanting them to make it right with God. We all know that being a christian does not guarantee a marriage without divorce. its comes down to man and women being commited to each other for life, being commited to God helps 100 fold but at the end of the day it comes down to the man and the women being faithful till death. In some of my discussion a concern was brought up about marring them under these circumstances, is it possible that these marry as fornicators? Would God bless such a union? Remember these all along knew that it was sin to live as they were and yet continued, so it was not like that did not know. Scripture tells us that God will not be mocked and marring them might not be the right thing to do, but im still not sure about that either. It has also been said to me "just marry them than after the wedding they can ask for forgiveness and all is good", maybe, but that did not sit well either. Im still praying for them and for me that I may better understand some of these issues that have been expressed.

e

[winsomebulldog]

Hello my extended friends, yea its been a while.

What Im looking for is just feed back, we get all types here so i want to run this by you all and see what say you.

A few months ago I had to remove a family from our church. A year ago had a young couple want to get married by me. I told them sure and sat with them to let them kow what needs to done in order for it to happen. At first they where good with what needed to happen. two weeks go by and I had not heard from them, i would see them and ask how is everything going, they said fine. Not to long after that we have our yearly fathers day outting I found out that they got an apartment together and had been living together for a few months now. I told them I could not marry them now. I still allowed them to come to church. The young lady has an older brother who has been coming to our church for years and was one of my leaders. I found out that he had been telling his sister that living together was not a sin, since they were getting married any way! I had no Idea he had this view. I talked with him and he just disagreed with not scripture to stand on. So I waited a while. During this time I find out that they are going to church members to discuss this and were dividing the church and people, new people would just walk up to and ask me about cohabitation and other questions about our fellowship, it was just odd. So I get an oppertunity to deal with both of these and asked them to stop speaking against me and our church, they refused, so i removed them from our church for promoting sin in their sisters life and causeing division in the church. I went to my pastors above me and they were divided on my choice. i have no regrets, but this was very hard to do. What say you?

without any more details on this matter i'll just say this the "church" has made up alot of commandments and rules that arn't really bibicly based.

it was mentioned that they were living together. However that does not mean by default that they are sleeping togather ( i know some would claim that its immoral because they would be tempted, but as it is written "even where sin abounds, grace abounds more and more, grace to stand up against temptation not to think that its ok to sin) and even paul and peter had women with them as they spread the gosple.

and also many others, myself included have found out by personal experience that the church sticks its noses where it just simply doesn't belong and by doing so causes strife and heartache leaving things worse rather than better.

and yes there is something called church discipline but it must be based on scripture and even then let scripture interprite itself in it proper context

The bold part sums it up completely. You chose to comment without bothering to actually read the entire thread, meaning you skipped over the places where we are told that they openly and without shame admitted that they were sleeping together (and lest you question it, they weren't just sleeping, but admitted to having a physically intimate relationship). And as to your other suggestion that the church was "sticking their noses where it just simply doesn't belong" you also missed the point that this couple sought out the pastor's counsel when seeking to have him marry them. Then they refused to heed his counsel and began sowing strife and discord among the rest of the church membership.

I do not mean to sound sharp or rude, but it is rarely wise for us to leap to comment upon the very first post in a thread like this one, or even on the tenth or fiftieth post if we have not taken the time to read all the posts that came before. We cannot have a full understanding of a thread without reading it's entirety. I know I have surrendered to that urge on previous occasions only to realize after further reading, or after having it blatantly pointed out to me, that I have missed a previous post that addressed my question, comments, or concerns. I not try not to be so hasty. While commenting here is not the same as having a personal, face to face conversation with someone, it is not so different when it comes to the discretion we ought to use before giving "voice" to our opinions and thoughts.

[Smalcald]

e lansing,

Yes I know what you mean and of course the marriage is valid and yes they can always repent as we all can for past sins.

I think though just from a standpoint of proper care for people that we as a Church should help Christians be more successful in marriage. Part of that would be pre-marital support. What a wonderful gift to be able to enter marriage with a clean heart already forgiven for past sins if they did occur between two Christians. The other predictor of divorce is if you live together prior to marriage.

I think some of this can and should be discussed from the pulpit also. Today I honestly think there is a relatively large contingent of Christians who believe having sex prior to marriage or living together as a couple prior to marriage is no big deal, not even really a sin.

Most people don't like to be hypocrites and I think would not like sitting for sermons about the sin of fornication.

The gay marriage stuff I think offers us the opportunity to talk about all sexual sin in our society and within our Christian community.

[oldzimm]

Sex outside of marriage is a sin, is their anybody that disagrees with that? I'm not perfect and I admit that I was guilty of premarital sex, I seen the error of my ways and repented of it.

If a man and a women are passionately in love with each other, why wait. Why wait till they are through college, why wait until they feel they have enough money saved up before they get married? If two people are truly in love, do you honestly think they will wait that long before having sex?

[Smalcald]

Sex outside of marriage is a sin, is their anybody that disagrees with that? I'm not perfect and I admit that I was guilty of premarital sex, I seen the error of my ways and repented of it.

If a man and a women are passionately in love with each other, why wait. Why wait till they are through college, why wait until they feel they have enough money saved up before they get married? If two people are truly in love, do you honestly think they will wait that long before having sex?

Yes if they are believers. I find it astounding that we give up so easily on purity and chastity. How in the world world would we have anything at all to say to a homosexual about living a life of purity? Many Christians do lead lives committed to Christ, many don't just give up on this issue.

I am not saying they have to wait until they are 30, but yeah they should wait until they have been through pre-marital preparation and can start a family and are old enough to support a family there is not one age and yes maybe for some 20 or 19 is fine if they are mature and can support children.

[e lansing]

e lansing,

Yes I know what you mean and of course the marriage is valid and yes they can always repent as we all can for past sins.

I think though just from a standpoint of proper care for people that we as a Church should help Christians be more successful in marriage. Part of that would be pre-marital support. What a wonderful gift to be able to enter marriage with a clean heart already forgiven for past sins if they did occur between two Christians. The other predictor of divorce is if you live together prior to marriage.

I think some of this can and should be discussed from the pulpit also. Today I honestly think there is a relatively large contingent of Christians who believe having sex prior to marriage or living together as a couple prior to marriage is no big deal, not even really a sin.

Most people don't like to be hypocrites and I think would not like sitting for sermons about the sin of fornication.

The gay marriage stuff I think offers us the opportunity to talk about all sexual sin in our society and within our Christian community.

Agreed! We as Christian leaders should strive to keep the standards high as God has laid them and not shy away from feeding the flock full course meals, year in and year out! As it has been said "you can take a horse to the water but you cannot make it drink".

e