Have the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased?

[naomi3]

1 Cor. 14:22

Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers.

I guess we must live in a time where everyone believes now because there is no need for this gift?

1 Cor. 14:39

Therefore, brethren, desrire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.

I think it is funny on other threads every one types the word out and says God's Word is perfect and does not ever contradict itself. So either you are saying it contradicts itself here or the Lord changed it later on in the Bible and just made it confusing for everyone to understand. Is this it?

[Scudbuddy]

1 Cor. 14:22

Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers.

I guess we must live in a time where everyone believes now because there is no need for this gift?

1 Cor. 14:39

Therefore, brethren, desrire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.

I think it is funny on other threads every one types the word out and says God's Word is perfect and does not ever contradict itself. So either you are saying it contradicts itself here or the Lord changed it later on in the Bible and just made it confusing for everyone to understand. Is this it?

It is very important for Cessationist to get rid of these gifts. Otherwise they must explain the verse John raised about ".......denying the power thereof."

[johnP]

Scudbuddy.

2 Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power(specifically miraculous power) thereof: from such turn away.

It is very important for Cessationist to get rid of these gifts. Otherwise they must explain the verse John raised about ".......denying the power thereof."

Not me guv. I believe that to be wrong. The passage has nothing to do with gifts but faith.

I was having a look back to find where Neb wrote that the gifts belong to God and He can give them as He pleases? Did you write that Neb, I can't find it?

johnp.

[apothanein kerdos]

I would like people to have a look at the verse below, and explain what the "perfect " is and what the "imperfect" are.

I would much appreciate any greek translations and any other bible verses that could support an oppinion.

Thanx people!

1 Corinthians 13

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Neb, I apologize that I haven't read through the topic (don't have time) so if I repeat anything, I apologize.

What is Paul attempting to convey? Many interpret Paul's letter to the Corinth church to mean that after the apostles were dead the need for gifts would cease. The arguement put forth is that they would no longer be needed. At the time they need super-natural abilities in order to survive the world in which they live. Once the world was Christianized (Constantine's conversion), the gifts were no longe rneeded because persecution ended. Thus the time of Gifts (30AD-300AD) was over.

Unfortunately, this belief is entirely Western in followers. It also ignores history. We know that not very long after Constantine's conversion, those who challenged the "Catholic" church were quickly put to death and persecuted. Those who we call "evangelicals" today would need to wait more than a thousand years before they could enjoy belief without persecution. Even to this day, Christians are persecuted in other nations. Thus if persecution or extreme circumstances was what caused the need for spiritual gifts, in all reality, that need never went away.

For the rest (since I am short on time), allow me to quote from carm.org:

Some vigorously maintain that the "perfect" is the completed Bible and, therefore, the extraordinary gifts are no longer needed. But I do not think these verses can be used to support cessationism. This is why.

Verse 12 says, "...then we shall see face to face." The word "then" refers back to the phrase "when the perfect comes." Since the only infallible interpreter of Scripture is Scripture, a quick examination of the way God uses the term "face to face" should help us understand this passage better.

The phrase is used throughout the Bible and always means an encounter with a person. When God uses it in reference to Himself, it means a visual, personal encounter with Him (Gen. 32:30; Ex. 33:11; Num. 12:8; Deut. 5:4; and Jer. 32:4). Likewise in the New Testament it is also used in speaking of personal encounter (2 Cor. 10:1; 2 John 12; 3 John 14, etc.). "When the perfect comes...then we shall see face to face" seems, most logically, to refer a personal encounter; at least, that seems to be how God uses the phrase.

If the position is taken that the "perfect" is the completed Bible, how then do we encounter God in the manner as the phrase suggests: an encounter with a person? Seeing Christ face to face occurs when He returns.

Another "then" is mentioned in verse 12: "then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." The word "then" again refers back to the phrase "when the perfect comes." Again, we need to look at how the Bible uses words. This time we'll look at the word "know." Scripture says that eternal life is to know God (John 17:3). Only the believer is known by Jesus (John 10:27; Gal. 4:8-9; Rom. 8:29). The unbeliever is not known by Jesus (Matt. 7:21-23). In every verse except for one, God says He only knows believers.(2) This is a salvific knowing; that is, it is a kind of knowing that God does of the Christians. He knows them and they are saved. The unbelievers are not known and are, therefore, not saved.(3)

It would seem most consistent with scripture to say that "...as I am fully known" would refer to a salvation relationship between Jesus and the Christian. At the return of Christ we (the ones known) shall know fully; we shall see face to face the One who is our Savior.

Also, we don't "know" Jesus through the Scripture; we know about Him from the Scripture (John 5:39). Instead, we know Him by personal encounter (John 1:12; 1 Cor. 1:9) through the Holy Spirit's indwelling. We don't know in a full sense right now, even though we have the Bible, because we are still corrupted by our sin nature. In our fallen state we can only see Christ through sin-clouded eyes. We see a reflection of Christ in the Word. When Jesus returns the reflection of the truth will pass to clear understanding (the way childish thoughts give way to mature ones) when we receive our resurrected bodies, no longer have to battle sinful flesh, and can see Him face to face because "we shall be like Him" (1 John 3:2) and then, "...we shall know fully." The context of 1 Cor. 13:8-13 seems, in my opinion, to show that the spiritual gifts will cease when Jesus returns.

Interestingly, 1 Cor. 1:7 may be consulted here as well. It says, "so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our lord Jesus Christ." The Greek word here for "revealed" is apokalupsis. It means the apocalypse, the return of Jesus. In both this verse and 1 Cor. 13:8-13 the gifts, which aren't differentiated as to kind, are connected to the return of Christ, not the completion of the Bible. One more thing, the word gift in the Greek is charisma. This is where we get the word 'charismatic.'

[eric]

Interesting SJ, could you please inform me which section of carm. org's page did you get this info. It'll save me time and I would like to do some research . thank you.

eric.

[Scudbuddy]

Scudbuddy.

2 Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power(specifically miraculous power) thereof: from such turn away.

It is very important for Cessationist to get rid of these gifts. Otherwise they must explain the verse John raised about ".......denying the power thereof."

Not me guv. I believe that to be wrong. The passage has nothing to do with gifts but faith.

I was having a look back to find where Neb wrote that the gifts belong to God and He can give them as He pleases? Did you write that Neb, I can't find it?

johnp.

John,

It doesn't matter what you believe. The greek makes it clear what it is. Dunamis is the word used for "power." Strongs says"it specifically refers to miraculous gifts." So when you read that verse this is what it actually says. "Having a form of godliness, but denying the miraculous gifts thereof." I believe that is another description of Cessationist.

[Omega]

To All including me!

Galatians 6:1 - Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Just in case for future reference to Brothers and Sisters in CHRIST! When one responds with either harsh words or resentment it only makes matter worse and therefore it would make it more difficult to clearly rationalize and the Holy Spirit is Grieved. On the discussion of prophecies, tongues and other gifts ceasing can easily be explained. Paul was referring to the same as what Jesus said. Heaven and Earth will pass away, so will the Gifts. This is referring to the ETERNAL STATE of when all Believers dwell in His Kingdom and He reigns forever. The Fact is that prophecies and tognues are useless in the Erernal State. Why would we need to Prophecy in the Eteranl State? Or why would we have to speak in tongues in the Eternal State if we are united in Absolute Harmony? Furthermore Paul mentions that Charity or Love will NEVER CEASE because it is one of the most important aspects in the Eternal State. Gifts on Earth such as Prophecy, why not! In Heaven it is useless. I hope for the glorification of Christ that this is now settled.

God Bless! :hug: :il:

Edited September 25, 2004 by Omega

[Nebuchadnezza10]

Hey Scudbuddy,

I hope I have not affended you. I believe that there is an answer for everything in the bible and there is nothing wrong with having the thinking of

[Scudbuddy]

No offense from you whatsoever. You are a kind and gracious brother who I have not heard an unkind thing come from. I am a bit more forward and direct. For the purpose of shaking people out of their apathy, faithlessness and Worldliness. So please excuse me when I speak boldly without relationship.

A Cessationist is one who believes that the gifts ceased with the writing of the word. I am a big believer that that posistion, though not one that affects ones' salvation in anyway is one that is false, and is propagated from a logical mindset which struggles with the supernatural. And also this posistion has produced little fruit or church growth. It is almost non-existent outside of the Western World because of the evidence of signs and wonders that exist. In fact it is laughed at because too many miracles have been seen to contradict the whole idea.

And because of that, the position you have below is even more laughed at. The idea that demons can no longer possess people, or that there is no demonic activity is prepostorous to the average Third World Christian. Even among the few Cessationist. Why? Because of the same unbelievable amount of evidence to the contrary. Only Empirical Scientific Western mindsets can remotely think like that.

Living in the Western world and saying that makes me sound like the idiot. But that is ok. Like my Third World brothers, I'd rather be a fool for Christ than the wisest man in the world.

Brother, I have seen demoniacs in full manifestation. People picked up by invisible forces and thrown back several feet without anyone touching them. Voices coming out of them straight from hell. Coupled with a smell that is on them that leaves as soon as the demon does. Eyes that go down until only the whites of their eyes are showing, all the time while not looking at you, and no mirrors around to see your reflection, knowing the instant you smile and telling you how much they hate your smile. These demons know your sins and secrets. They can make a room go cold as ice in the middle of a tropic summer in places without air conditioning. They writhe in pain at the mention of Jesus, and beg for mercy from Christians who know their God. And they love Christians who think with an empirical mindset. Because they can keep them so earth bound to scientific principles and philosophical reason that has not once done a thing for the spiritual man.

And if you ever seen what I am describing, you will know why the quote below this paragraph is so funny to me. This type of reason is why the scriptures say "The Carnal mind is at enmity with God." God doesn't figure into logic and reason. And when Christians fall into the trap of trying to explain all their is about life and God through reason, it ends up costing truth so much. And when we take the word and try to explain the mysteries of the supernatural and who God is and how He thinks, we put God in this box that one day we will find He refuses to exist in.

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Neb said,

"I believe that demons no longer have the power to posses, and that all the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are gone. Including the ability of casting out demons. There is no longer the Gifts, therefore there is no longer demon possession or demon activity."

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Besides what I have seen with my own eyes, and I have seen almost every major miracle recorded in the NT including the dead raised, what I have seen in the Word is a cry from God to touch this world with the Kingdom of Heaven. We owe unbelievers an encounter with God. The world in our Western section sees no reason to believe because we Christians don't actually believe. We say we do, and then we try to explain Christianitys powerlessness through Cessationism. The world just sees another philosophy without substance.

[Scudbuddy]

"So to conclude, i am asuming that everyone belives then that the perfect refered to in 1 Cor is the NT then?"

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No sir, you are incorrect. And I am not thee only one. Several on this thread have said differently. We believe as one brother put it that the perfect is what happens when we meet Jesus in the air. I think that is clear and concise and allows God to be God without excuses.