Have the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased?

[waitingforhim]

No one laid hands on the disciples and they received the baptism in the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues.

False statements ie--- Only the apostles or those commissioned by them (by the laying on of hands) could perform or receive a miracle." This modification to account for the above counterexamples still fails.

Ananias prayed for Paul and he received his sight (Acts 9:17-18), but absolutely nothing indicates that Ananias received a special commissioning from the Twelve. Paul and Barnabas were not of the Twelve nor commissioned by them, but God performed many miracles in their ministry (Acts 14:3).

The New Testament promises miracles to all believers without restriction or discrimination. Jesus promised that ALL believers could speak in tongues and experience other miracles (Mark 16:17-18). All believers can receive answers to prayer, including miracles (Matthew 21:22; Mark 11:22-24; John 14:12-14; 15:7). Local elders can pray successfully for the saints' divine healing and all saints can pray for each other's healing (James 5:14-16). Miracles and tongues are God's gift to the whole church (I Corinthians 12:8-10, 28).

(3)False:-- "Miracles were only for the days of the apostles."

The passages cited above discredit this statement, for none specify a time limitation. To the contrary, each was given to all believers or to the church as a whole without restriction as to time. Paul wrote I Corinthians to the entire church of all ages, addressing it "unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours" (I Corinthians 1:2). He expressed confidence that they would "come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (I Corinthians 1:7). That book discusses the gifts of the Spirit, including gifts of healing, working of miracles, and kinds of tongues (I Corinthians 12:8-10), 50 Paul clearly expected the church to retain and properly use all the spiritual gifts until Christ's return.

Everyone agrees that the Great Commission applies to the church today, and so must its fulfillment. The Early Church fulfilled it: "And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following" (Mark 16:20); "God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will" (Hebrews 2:4). If we have the same Lord, the same commission, the same gospel, the same faith, and the same needy world, surely we will have the same signs accompanying and confirming our message.

Tongues Have Not Ceased

I Corinthians 13:8-10 states, "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. Some people use this passage to teach that tongues have ceased, by identifying "that which is perfect" with the completed New Testament. This argument fails for a number of reasons:

(1) The spiritual gifts, including tongues, will reside in the church until the second coming of Christ (I Corinthians 1:2, 7).

(2) This being so, it is logical to identify "that which is perfect" with Jesus Christ or, more specifically, with the Second Coming of Christ. The Greek word translated as "perfect" is teleion, which is neuter singular, but the Greek language always refers to the Scriptures in the feminine plural.

(3) Tongues will cease at the same time as prophecy and knowledge, according to verse 8. Prophecy includes inspired preaching, praising, and testifying. Obviously the church still has prophecy and knowledge.

(4) The Bible and miracles do not have interchangeable functions. The Bible presents the Word of God in written form, but God still uses miracles, signs, and spiritual gifts to confirm the Word (Mark 16:20; Hebrews 2:4).

(5) In I Corinthians 13:11-13, Paul compared levels of spiritual growth to physical and mental growth, but he did not label tongues as childish. He compared our partial knowledge to the perfect knowledge we shall have when Christ returns. If we have already reached the ultimate stage, then we are more mature than Paul was, for he died before the completion of the New Testament. If speaking in tongues be childish, Paul never left the childish stage, for he continually spoke in tongues (I Corinthians 14:18).

(6) The New Testament is God's Word, but we are not yet perfect, nor is the world perfect. Perfection will come only after Christ returns.

[Scudbuddy]

Scud

I'll have to read it tonight and reply tomorrow. I''m printing it out right now

God bless

Dave

Oh Dave, You have no idea how tempting it is for the evil side of me (from my mothers side) to take advantage of your not posting yet. And then my good side (Heavenly Fathers side since my dad should have also been included in the sin part) reminded me of grace, mercy and "cut and paste." I probaly listened to "cut and paste" more, and decided it would be too easy for you to show me slow to post, but quick to anger. So feel free to post as needed. And I will try to soothe my conscience with a brownie.

[Scudbuddy]

No one laid hands on the disciples and they received the baptism in the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues.

False statements ie--- Only the apostles or those commissioned by them (by the laying on of hands) could perform or receive a miracle." This modification to account for the above counterexamples still fails.

Ananias prayed for Paul and he received his sight (Acts 9:17-18), but absolutely nothing indicates that Ananias received a special commissioning from the Twelve. Paul and Barnabas were not of the Twelve nor commissioned by them, but God performed many miracles in their ministry (Acts 14:3).

The New Testament promises miracles to all believers without restriction or discrimination. Jesus promised that ALL believers could speak in tongues and experience other miracles (Mark 16:17-18). All believers can receive answers to prayer, including miracles (Matthew 21:22; Mark 11:22-24; John 14:12-14; 15:7). Local elders can pray successfully for the saints' divine healing and all saints can pray for each other's healing (James 5:14-16). Miracles and tongues are God's gift to the whole church (I Corinthians 12:8-10, 28).

(3)False:-- "Miracles were only for the days of the apostles."

The passages cited above discredit this statement, for none specify a time limitation. To the contrary, each was given to all believers or to the church as a whole without restriction as to time. Paul wrote I Corinthians to the entire church of all ages, addressing it "unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours" (I Corinthians 1:2). He expressed confidence that they would "come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (I Corinthians 1:7). That book discusses the gifts of the Spirit, including gifts of healing, working of miracles, and kinds of tongues (I Corinthians 12:8-10), 50 Paul clearly expected the church to retain and properly use all the spiritual gifts until Christ's return.

Everyone agrees that the Great Commission applies to the church today, and so must its fulfillment. The Early Church fulfilled it: "And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following" (Mark 16:20); "God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will" (Hebrews 2:4). If we have the same Lord, the same commission, the same gospel, the same faith, and the same needy world, surely we will have the same signs accompanying and confirming our message.

Tongues Have Not Ceased

I Corinthians 13:8-10 states, "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. Some people use this passage to teach that tongues have ceased, by identifying "that which is perfect" with the completed New Testament. This argument fails for a number of reasons:

(1) The spiritual gifts, including tongues, will reside in the church until the second coming of Christ (I Corinthians 1:2, 7).

(2) This being so, it is logical to identify "that which is perfect" with Jesus Christ or, more specifically, with the Second Coming of Christ. The Greek word translated as "perfect" is teleion, which is neuter singular, but the Greek language always refers to the Scriptures in the feminine plural.

(3) Tongues will cease at the same time as prophecy and knowledge, according to verse 8. Prophecy includes inspired preaching, praising, and testifying. Obviously the church still has prophecy and knowledge.

(4) The Bible and miracles do not have interchangeable functions. The Bible presents the Word of God in written form, but God still uses miracles, signs, and spiritual gifts to confirm the Word (Mark 16:20; Hebrews 2:4).

(5) In I Corinthians 13:11-13, Paul compared levels of spiritual growth to physical and mental growth, but he did not label tongues as childish. He compared our partial knowledge to the perfect knowledge we shall have when Christ returns. If we have already reached the ultimate stage, then we are more mature than Paul was, for he died before the completion of the New Testament. If speaking in tongues be childish, Paul never left the childish stage, for he continually spoke in tongues (I Corinthians 14:18).

(6) The New Testament is God's Word, but we are not yet perfect, nor is the world perfect. Perfection will come only after Christ returns.

Great insight and research. You should be the hard charger here.

[Nebuchadnezza10]

Old Strongs:5046 telios; from 5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neut. (as noun, with 3588) completeness:-of full age, man, perfect.

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KJ Strong

Edited October 6, 2004 by Nebuchadnezza10

[Scudbuddy]

Old Strongs:5046 telios; from 5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neut. (as noun, with 3588) completeness:-of full age, man, perfect.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

KJ Strong

[Scudbuddy]

Neb asks,

"Why would it disturb me? We are told to test everything, we are not told to believe peoples experiences."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scudbuddy replies,

Fruit is inter-related to experience. When someone says they are a christian, but you experience them acting like a pagan, you say to yourself, "the fruit on this tree is bad." Our experiences are very much involved with fruit and how to judge it. And we are told to judge things by their fruit. In other words, just because I tell you I am a Christian doesn't make it so. You look for fruit, proper Christology, and the evidence of the Holy Spirit on my life which shows in what? The fruits of the Spirit!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THEN YOU QUOTE THIS SECTION FROM THE SAME POST.

Scudbuddy states,

"Now I am not saying you are a Pharisee, but since I know exactly what happened in my experiences, I am either a liar, deluded, or you are exactly in the danger I have portrayed. So fast and pray and seek God over this. This is serious stuff."

Neb replies,

"The

[Scudbuddy]

Neb says,

"I agree, we are not perfect, and never will be on this earth. But if the word is not perfect why are you following it. Further more, if the word is not perfect then it is also a liar because it claims to be perfect, and to have the knowledge to make us righteous and complete. The word is inspired by God and if something that he inspired is imperfect then, that would make him imperfect."

Scudbuddy replies,

This still doesn't get rid of the fact that it was talking of a man.

And though the word in its original manuscript is perfect in its inspiration, we all know that the translations only disagree severely because of what? Imperfection. This is why there are fights about Mark 16. This is why we are having this discussion. You guys want those verses taken out. You guys don't even think they belong in scriptures, and say so in most bibles. "These verses were not included in the earliest manuscripts........"

And you know we don't have any of the earliest originals. Those are the perfect ones.

Last chapter of Romans names one of the "Chief amongst the apostles" as Junias. Why? Because it called a woman an "apostle." The earliest manuscript uses the feminine name. June.

:x: Do you know how many of these kind of things I can point to. More than you would like to know. How about how many times Peter denies Christ in the gospels. Count the times by counting all the gospels descriptions of what happened. 5 times. I am sure the original has a reason for it, but what we have now doesn't.

The Word of God is inspired by God, and without error. "All scriptures are given by inspiration of God and are profitable for correction, instruction........" We all know this. But what we have in our translations is not thee perfect manuscript. But even if it was, the fact remains, telios is not a book.

So where is this perfect manuscript. It is not in our hands. But it was supposed to do away with the need for gifts. It has to be here. It is what we use instead of the gifts to confirm our preaching.

Sorry, but without them, your stance is without logic and reason.

[Botz]

1Corinthians 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Then Chapter 12 of Corinthians which binds everything together with love.

1Corinthians 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

In spite of some of the gross sin that has been going on in the Corinthian Church that needed dealing with Paul the Apostle can see the fervancy and desire that the Church has to move in the realm of the Spirit...and although they have been going all over the place with the use and abuse of the gifts...Paul uses it as an opportunity to encourage,admonish and exhort them in the correct use of the gifts and above all to pursue love above all else...and allow their use of the gifts then to flow from their understanding of what chapter 12 reveals....and not out of selfish pride or one upmanship etc.

Neb...

Prophecy was a direct revelation from God. We have all the revelation we need for righteousness in the BIBLE! The bible itself claims that it is all we need!

It is an unbelievable position to try and maintain that the gifts of the Holy Ghost have ceased because we now have perfect Scriptures that furnish us with all we need to live rightoeus lives. Yes the Bible contains that...but it also spells out for us that G-d has given gifts to His Church...they equip us to deal with what is at work in the world ...namely the spiritual darkness....because we do not fight against flesh and blood....people still need healing,delivering and setting free and that is part of why we as the body of Christ on earth now will do greater things than he did when alive and confined to the likeness of sinful flesh to one small area in the world.

It is because the Father and the Son have set up residence within us by the presence of the Holy Ghost that we the body display forth the works of G-d to glorify him and set the captives free....it is symptomatic of being 'In Christ'...it is totally natural in a supernatural way.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

One almost feels that people who vehemently say that the gifts have ceased and imply that all Christian experience of such is demonic or self-deception are taking up stones because their limited understanding of the ways of the Spirit are being severely challenged by the evidence presented to them.

John 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

John 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

For what good works are we being stoned? (It has already been asked)

QUOTE 

The Bible and miracles do not have interchangeable functions. The Bible presents the Word of God in written form, but God still uses miracles, signs, and spiritual gifts to confirm the Word (Mark 16:20; Hebrews 2:4).

The word has been confirmed and no longer needs to have continual confirmation.

You have got to be kidding me...on what authority do you say that G-d does not continually confirm His word...or for that matter confirm His Church?...unbelievable !!

QUOTE 

Does this not disturb you that if my miracles are true, if my experiences did happen, if people are being healed, demons expelled, and prophetic words are being accurately stated; that you are now the ones in that posistion? Before you answer that question, take time to think about it. A lot of time. Fast and pray about it. Ask God for revelation concerning this. Do not hardened your posistion due to pride and stubborness. "Search ye the Scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life." Notice the word "think". Jesus was speaking to Pharisees when he said this.

Why would it disturb me? We are told to test everything, we are not told to believe peoples experiences.

What you are told to test is whether another gospel is being preached.

Galations 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

What you are told to test is the fruit of peoples lives.

Matthew 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

What you are told to test is brotherly love.

John 13:35 By this all shall know that you are My disciples, if you have love toward one another.

What we are not told to do is bury our head in the sand when presented with overwhelming personal testimony or to dismiss out of hand what G-d is doing throughout the earth through the work of the Holy Ghost....as far as I can see this denotes both pride and unbelief and is a hinderance and a stumbling block.

QUOTE 

Signs win the lost faster than any argument given by Cessationist to come to Jesus. I know that if I came to your country and took two days to set up a meeting to preach, all the while you had months to prepare your meeting, and we set it up on the same day; the people if they knew you were a cessationist and I was not, they would flock to my meeting, and you would get a handful of people like yourself. Men who for some reason in a Third World country excused the works of the Holy Spirit. Men who are bound to the memories of the fake to disprove the real. This is fact, and not opinion.

What

[Guest Called]

Botz, that has got to be one of the best explanations about the gifts of the Spirit I have ever heard. Wow.

By the way, my answer to the original question is NO, the gifts have not ceased. Nor will they until the Lord returns and His bride is carried up to heaven to be with Him.

[Scudbuddy]

The manuscripts we have are though as reliable as needed. I do not want to denegrate their reliability. They are extremely reliable. They are just not the originals, and there are a few minor descrepencies like Mark 16 missing from some of the earlier manuscripts that point toward conflict. Conflict points toward "Not Perfect". But we can trust these manuscripts to faithfully give us the word. I am trying to make a technical point that these manuscripts have the touch of man to them to the point that perfection cannot be claimed.