Nebuchadnezza10 Posted October 12, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 143 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/20/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 12, 2004 With those verses, you have stated that they "catagorically" stated that "only the apostles could pass on the gifts." Yet now, it is not so "catagorically." Now you got some logic and reasoning saying "Why else", to try to figure out what was going on. Maybe if I give you the vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scudbuddy Posted October 12, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 340 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/23/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 12, 2004 You rejected my stories because you had no way of confirming them. I could be lying. I could be deluded. Here is a logical and reasonable story of God speaking to a lady, and you still reject it. It is from a secular source that is usually hostile toward Christians and miracles. But you reject it. You reject my experiences because they contradict your understanding of the word. You claim that I do not use the word. I use it, and you either ignore it or you twist it with your logic. And you allow yourself every presumption in the book, but deny any of us a bit of such things. Proof: 1.Ananais lays hands on Paul and tells him that he is going to recieve the Holy Spirit. I take it at face value. You presume it only meant baptism. Ignoring that in other verses when the Gentiles got the Holy Spirit, the apostles were amazed at it. But the proof was staring them in the face. They were speaking in tongues. You presumed that Paul didn't get it right then in your first post about this. Then in your second post about this after it is shown that he didn't get it elsewhere, you then claim it was only water baptism. When I say it was thee baptism of the Holy Spirit involving the same thing that happened to the Gentiles, you say I presume. Yet you presume that the gifts can only be given by the Holy Spirit because Simon wanted to buy them off the apostles? Stupid me. Why didn't I trust Simons judgement about how we get the gifts. Why he must have been a treasure trove of theological insight. Of course you have 2 other verses about the apostles praying for people and they got the gifts. Which book did that occur in? The "Acts of the Apostles." Silly me. Why would I even think that other disciples could pass it on. Just because they can pray healing on Pauls eyes, how could they even think they could pray the baptism of the Holy Spirit on them. Just because the word "filled" in the greek is thee exact same word in Acts 2:4 that described being baptized with the Holy Spirit with evidence being the speaking in tongues, and not baptism of water. Just because Ananais described his mission given by Jesus himself to be praying over Paul to get this filling. This is what he said his mission was. "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming HAS SENT ME so that you may regain your sight and BE filled with the Holy Spirit." Sorry, but you are presuming when the bible leaves no room for presumption. Guess what later before he ever met the apostles the WORD says about Paul. It describes "Strength" increasing on him. Guess what that word is a derivative of. "Dunamis". Guess what Dunamis means. "Miraculous Power." And he hadn't even met an apostle yet. Your other verses again do not state CATAGORICALLY that the gifts could only give the gifts away. Only records incidents where they passed the gifts. Acts is about them, so that is what will be recorded. How is that for the WORD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebuchadnezza10 Posted October 12, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 143 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/20/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 12, 2004 You rejected my stories because you had no way of confirming them. I could be lying. I could be deluded. Here is a logical and reasonable story of God speaking to a lady, and you still reject it. It is from a secular source that is usually hostile toward Christians and miracles. But you reject it. It Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishcowboy Posted October 12, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 127 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,248 Content Per Day: 0.88 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/23/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted October 12, 2004 any news paper article can be verified.... there are many many many that have their own web site...... just as the article that showed in Houston about a teacher taking a Bible from a student during "open/free" reading time and thrown in the trash..... some one told me about it, I contacted the paper and being it was not a story on their web site, i did get a confirmation...... most papers will be accomidating on getting articles to a person if they ask.... as far as the reasons that we do not see the workings of the Holy Spirit as much these days is because of people saying that "IT CAN NOT BE SO," " IT GOES AGAINST SCIENCE" " IF THE DOCTORS DO IT, THEN IT AINT OF GOD" "I REALLY DON'T THINK THIS WILL HAPPEN"........ do you realize that there have been reports of people in third world countries ( that have not mass media ) that have had parts of their body reappear, that have been missing for one reason or other???? let me relay a story about a man, this man was uneducated, he loved his wife lots, and he loved the Lord with everything......... this man could not read a lick, his wife was the one that did the reading of the Bible....... one instance there was a woman that was having problems with her stomach, aching and aching..... she went to this man and asked him if he could help her ( he was a plumber )...... he hauled off and slugged her in the stomach, and the stomach problems were no more...... when asked why he hit her in the stomach, he replyed he did not hit her, but he had just slugged satan, she just got in the way........ another instance, when this mans wife died, he took her from the hospital, and took her home.... laid her in her bed and prayd over her.... she returned and spoke to him....... Smith, my work here is done, you still have work to do, so you must let me go now...... can this be confirmed? there have been many confirmations of works God did thru this man..... when??? oh, these events happened with in the last 100 years..... and there were people alive real recent that were witness to some..... this mans name is Smith Wigglesworth..... you can find info in most boookstores.. as far as the Gifts being passed on by the desciples, you better think again.... 1st Corinth, 12, 13, 14..... they are passed on by the Holy Spirit.... they are given according to the Holy Spirits desires.... giving credit to man for something the Holy Spirit does is not a good thing.... mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scudbuddy Posted October 12, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 340 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/23/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 12, 2004 Neb says, "I reject you experiences because I have no way of verifying them. Just as you reject my experiences because you have no way of verifying what I say." ________________________________________________________________________________ Never once have I rejected that your experiences happened. In fact I have made it a point of saying I believe they happened. I disagree with what your friend did. He shouldn't have done it. But it happened and I believe everything you have told me. But "Love believes all things" actually meant that to me. I hadn't heard the "Crossed T" version yet. Second, as I had said in previous post, the word "strength" means in the greek "endowed with miraculous power." His "strength" increased. So yes, it is referred to. And the fact that I have already showed the biblical verse and word showing so in the last post is my answer to your ignoring it. You have done that several times before. Usually I have to show the verse twice or more before it is looked at from my point of view and dealt with. ________________________________________________________________________________ Scudbuddy said, Guess what later before he ever met the apostles the WORD says about Paul. It describes "Strength" increasing on him. Guess what that word is a derivative of. "Dunamis". Guess what Dunamis means. "Miraculous Power." And he hadn't even met an apostle yet. Neb replied, There is two problems with your theory. First, the word also means to become stronger or to make strong. Saul was becoming stronger in his ability to speak about Christ. Secondly, the HS does not get stronger in a person. He already is strong. Just like you would not say the HS power gets weaker in a person, you cannot say the HS POWER gets stronger. This insinuates that the HS was weak in the first place. ________________________________________________________________________________ "Endowed with miraculous powers." That is what the word means. And the verse says he was getting stronger. So the verse contradicts the idea that Saul/Paul wasn't getting stronger in the gifts. It is called "maturity." He was learning how to trust God in everything more and more. Thank God he never ran into a Cessationist that got rid of the gifts and demon possession. I can just see it now. "Jesus I know, Paul I was supposed to know, ......." You presume way too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scudbuddy Posted October 12, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 340 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/23/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 12, 2004 any news paper article can be verified.... there are many many many that have their own web site...... just as the article that showed in Houston about a teacher taking a Bible from a student during "open/free" reading time and thrown in the trash..... some one told me about it, I contacted the paper and being it was not a story on their web site, i did get a confirmation...... most papers will be accomidating on getting articles to a person if they ask.... as far as the reasons that we do not see the workings of the Holy Spirit as much these days is because of people saying that "IT CAN NOT BE SO," " IT GOES AGAINST SCIENCE" " IF THE DOCTORS DO IT, THEN IT AINT OF GOD" "I REALLY DON'T THINK THIS WILL HAPPEN"........ do you realize that there have been reports of people in third world countries ( that have not mass media ) that have had parts of their body reappear, that have been missing for one reason or other???? let me relay a story about a man, this man was uneducated, he loved his wife lots, and he loved the Lord with everything......... this man could not read a lick, his wife was the one that did the reading of the Bible....... one instance there was a woman that was having problems with her stomach, aching and aching..... she went to this man and asked him if he could help her ( he was a plumber )...... he hauled off and slugged her in the stomach, and the stomach problems were no more...... when asked why he hit her in the stomach, he replyed he did not hit her, but he had just slugged satan, she just got in the way........ another instance, when this mans wife died, he took her from the hospital, and took her home.... laid her in her bed and prayd over her.... she returned and spoke to him....... Smith, my work here is done, you still have work to do, so you must let me go now...... can this be confirmed? there have been many confirmations of works God did thru this man..... when??? oh, these events happened with in the last 100 years..... and there were people alive real recent that were witness to some..... this mans name is Smith Wigglesworth..... you can find info in most boookstores.. as far as the Gifts being passed on by the desciples, you better think again.... 1st Corinth, 12, 13, 14..... they are passed on by the Holy Spirit.... they are given according to the Holy Spirits desires.... giving credit to man for something the Holy Spirit does is not a good thing.... mike Neb doesn't care less how much proof we have. How many witnessess. Doesn't matter. What matters is does it fit within his paradigm of how things are supposed to be. And he can't state that only the bible can offer proof, because when it does, he presumes the proof out of it, making it impotent. Every verse that shows the gifts are for today he mocks or messes with. "These signs shall follow those who believe." He brings up snakes and poisons. "Strenthened" he corrupts with the idea that it had to mean he became a better preacher. "Filled with the Holy Spirit" he changes to baptism with water and just getting the Holy Ghost without the evidence of such. He has more magic tricks up his sleeve to get rid of the gifts than any Cessationist I know. And he has gotten rid of demon possession too. They went with the passing of the gifts. Even his Cessationist allies are in amazement about that. He did that with logic. No verse out there even remotely suggest it. Enter into this debate, and you enter the land of OZ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebuchadnezza10 Posted October 13, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 143 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/20/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 13, 2004 as far as the Gifts being passed on by the desciples, you better think again.... 1st Corinth, 12, 13, 14..... they are passed on by the Holy Spirit.... they are given according to the Holy Spirits desires.... Yes, the gifts that the people receive are chosen by th HS by they are passed on by the Apostles. Neb says, "I reject you experiences because I have no way of verifying them. Just as you reject my experiences because you have no way of verifying what I say." ________________________________________________________________________________ Never once have I rejected that your experiences happened. In fact I have made it a point of saying I believe they happened. I disagree with what your friend did. He shouldn't have done it. But it happened and I believe everything you have told me. If what I say is true does that make what I am saying correct then? Scudbuddy said, Guess what later before he ever met the apostles the WORD says about Paul. It describes "Strength" increasing on him. Guess what that word is a derivative of. "Dunamis". Guess what Dunamis means. "Miraculous Power." And he hadn't even met an apostle yet. Neb replied, There is two problems with your theory. First, the word also means to become stronger or to make strong. Saul was becoming stronger in his ability to speak about Christ. Secondly, the HS does not get stronger in a person. He already is strong. Just like you would not say the HS power gets weaker in a person, you cannot say the HS POWER gets stronger. This insinuates that the HS was weak in the first place. ________________________________________________________________________________ "Endowed with miraculous powers." That is what the word means. And the verse says he was getting stronger. So the verse contradicts the idea that Saul/Paul wasn't getting stronger in the gifts. It is called "maturity." He was learning how to trust God in everything more and more. So are you saying that he grew in strength with regards to maturity? That's what I said. Have a look: (italics added) There is two problems with your theory. First, the word also means to become stronger or to make strong. Saul was becoming stronger in his ability to speak about Christ. (because he trusted him, and therore was growing in maturity) Secondly, the HS does not get stronger in a person. He already is strong. Just like you would not say the HS power gets weaker in a person, you cannot say the HS POWER gets stronger. This insinuates that the HS was weak in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scudbuddy Posted October 13, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 340 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/23/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 13, 2004 as far as the Gifts being passed on by the desciples, you better think again.... 1st Corinth, 12, 13, 14..... they are passed on by the Holy Spirit.... they are given according to the Holy Spirits desires.... Yes, the gifts that the people receive are chosen by th HS by they are passed on by the Apostles. Neb says, "I reject you experiences because I have no way of verifying them. Just as you reject my experiences because you have no way of verifying what I say." ________________________________________________________________________________ Never once have I rejected that your experiences happened. In fact I have made it a point of saying I believe they happened. I disagree with what your friend did. He shouldn't have done it. But it happened and I believe everything you have told me. If what I say is true does that make what I am saying correct then? Scudbuddy said, Guess what later before he ever met the apostles the WORD says about Paul. It describes "Strength" increasing on him. Guess what that word is a derivative of. "Dunamis". Guess what Dunamis means. "Miraculous Power." And he hadn't even met an apostle yet. Neb replied, There is two problems with your theory. First, the word also means to become stronger or to make strong. Saul was becoming stronger in his ability to speak about Christ. Secondly, the HS does not get stronger in a person. He already is strong. Just like you would not say the HS power gets weaker in a person, you cannot say the HS POWER gets stronger. This insinuates that the HS was weak in the first place. ________________________________________________________________________________ "Endowed with miraculous powers." That is what the word means. And the verse says he was getting stronger. So the verse contradicts the idea that Saul/Paul wasn't getting stronger in the gifts. It is called "maturity." He was learning how to trust God in everything more and more. So are you saying that he grew in strength with regards to maturity? That's what I said. Have a look: (italics added) There is two problems with your theory. First, the word also means to become stronger or to make strong. Saul was becoming stronger in his ability to speak about Christ. (because he trusted him, and therore was growing in maturity) Secondly, the HS does not get stronger in a person. He already is strong. Just like you would not say the HS power gets weaker in a person, you cannot say the HS POWER gets stronger. This insinuates that the HS was weak in the first place. Now you are taking me out of context. His maturity built up his faith. He had faith for greater works and miracles. Your posistion is that their is no faith involved in what the Holy Spirit does, that the HS is doing it at the max right at the first and that ignores Jesus' statement about the "Mustard Seed" and how much it can affect the miraculous. Pauls maturity produced greater faith for greater miracles. The "Strengthened" is about being endowed with miraculous powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
His son Posted October 13, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 764 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/01/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted October 13, 2004 The idea that The Gifts of The Holy Spirit can only be had by the laying on of the hands of The Apostles is really another false doctrine. It is The Holy Spirit who gives the gifts, and He has total freedom to give them as He will. He has used me to operate in many of The Gifts, and I don't personally know any of the apostles. Nor did anyone pray for me to recieve them. All I had to do was what The Holy Spirit told me to. I was also all by myself when I got the baptism of The Holy Spirit. So for anyone to try to limit how God wants to do anything is not wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botz Posted October 13, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,492 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 191 Days Won: 18 Joined: 03/29/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 13, 2004 ...erm.. His Son...personal testimony is superfluous in the realm of Nebuchadnezza. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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