oh hmm evolution

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

OK, I'm a "literal 6 yom but quite some time ago" creationist, clear as mud? I think He supernaturally created and speciation is a result of the fall. So I'm not saying that evolution had any creative power, but that it has thwarted creation after it was designed / started by Him. Make sense?

Yep, I think so.

What I figure is that God likes variety, so in a perfect world (or garden as the case may be) that it wasn't an issue whether something was suited to its environment, because in tranquility everything was equally suited because all they needed to do was exist, not compete or anything.

At the fall though, either God wouldn't have doomed animals to failure but making flat-toothed, hoofed animals carnivores, or if they were they just died out and the sharp toothed, clawed ones survived and propagated.

Assuming that this isn't the total speculation on my part that it is, does that answer the question?

Yes I think it does.

Do you think that God:

1. designed Lions to eat grass, and they were forced to adapt after the fall
2. designed Lions to eat grass, but also designed them to change to adapt to eating meat
3. designed Lions to eat meat know apriori what the fall would do, but also designed them to adapt to eating grass until the fall?

Check Out The Giant Panda Skull

You ever seen a llama's "fighting teeth"?

Huge, inverted fangs, the likes of which any predator would be proud. I think they're only in found among the males.

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

[OK, I'm a "literal 6 yom but quite some time ago" creationist, clear as mud? I think He supernaturally created and speciation is a result of the fall. So I'm not saying that evolution had any creative power, but that it has thwarted creation after it was designed / started by Him. Make sense?

Yep, I think so.

What I figure is that God likes variety, so in a perfect world (or garden as the case may be) that it wasn't an issue whether something was suited to its environment, because in tranquility everything was equally suited because all they needed to do was exist, not compete or anything.

At the fall though, either God wouldn't have doomed animals to failure but making flat-toothed, hoofed animals carnivores, or if they were they just died out and the sharp toothed, clawed ones survived and propagated.

Assuming that this isn't the total speculation on my part that it is, does that answer the question?

Yes I think it does.

Do you think that God:

1. designed Lions to eat grass, and they were forced to adapt after the fall
2. designed Lions to eat grass, but also designed them to change to adapt to eating meat
3. designed Lions to eat meat know apriori what the fall would do, but also designed them to adapt to eating grass until the fall?

Just a guess but I'd have to go with made them to eat grass knowing they'd need to adapt.

He made perfection and it fell, so it seems to me like it had to be set up for perfection first and fall second.

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

It's a reasonable thought, i've seen where aspects of evolution are easily logical and attractive to thought. The thing to know is this: some things aren't black and white,

Wait, I thought we were talking about pandas... they're not black and white anymore?

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

DF, perhaps you'd like to answer my question above? I've considered the possibility that the fall happened so quickly that carnivorous animals didn't need to eat until after the fall anyway...

Hey Candice, when Jesus came back to visit the apostles He ate fish with them, which to my mind begs the question, does Jesus need to eat to survive - and the obvious answer is no. It must have been for the purpose of communion or something, not out of survival necessity.

Therefore, if the animals in the garden were created in something of a comparable state, which seems likely to me given that New Heaven and New Earth will be a reconciliation back to God's will, then I doubt food was given for necessity at all.

Don's argument presupposes a purpose that we have every reason to dismiss as a relevant factor based on the conditions of the time, it seems to me.

Just at though.

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

Yes I think carnivores are a result of the fall.

Then all species of snakes should have molars, not fangs, no? Whats up with shark teeth, seems like they wouldn't work to well on algae. What is your explanation for anacondas--would they need to squash watermelons? Why do the big cats have big canines, do you think T-Rex really used those teeth just to graze? In fact, why does any animal have canines? What's the need for venom in the animal kingdom? Why do raptors have beaks and talons, and why do some fly so fast if they only eat seeds? What do porcupine quills protect porcupines from? If you say these showed up post fall, then where are the fossilized ancestors of all these and of course, you'd be supporting evolution.

What I also do not understand is where the dangerous bacteria, ugly and annoying insects and viruses come from. I can only see these alternatives:

- They also existed in the Garden

- They have been created by God after the fall

- They macro-evolved from nicer creatures after the fall

- They sprung out via abiogenesys after the fall

I am aware that I am useless in biology...maybe I need some help to understand.

They were there, there just was harmony so they weren't dangerous or annoying at the time.

[Don Fanucci]

Do you think that God:

1. designed Lions to eat grass, and they were forced to adapt after the fall
2. designed Lions to eat grass, but also designed them to change to adapt to eating meat
3. designed Lions to eat meat know apriori what the fall would do, but also designed them to adapt to eating grass until the fall?

Lions are not lions because they roar. They are lions because of how they were built. Everything about them says I am a meat eater. They have canines (omonivorous do too, but bears eat anything and everything, including prey) and big ones at that. They have claws (ominivorous bears do too, and they can be used for digging or tearing), but cat claws are retractable, which is different from other omnivorous claws. Their digestive system is built for meat, they skeleton is built for them being a meat eater. You could probably find a grazer of two that may have a characteristic or two that a lion has, but those animals that are predators are built for that and not grazing.

DF, perhaps you'd like to answer my question above? I've considered the possibility that the fall happened so quickly that carnivorous animals didn't need to eat until after the fall anyway...

I don't think this makes sense. Lions go a few days without eating, if you got into weeks, I think you'd have a dead lion. Are you saying they were grazers from the time they were created, up to the fall, then switched over? Don't think so. Switching over to massive amounts of meat after not eating meat can be fatal due to ammonia toxicity.

[Guest]

Jesus

Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 1 Colossians 1:13-17

Is LORD

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Revelation 4:11

____________

I don't think this makes sense. Lions go a few days without eating, if you got into weeks, I think you'd have a dead lion. Are you saying they were grazers from the time they were created, up to the fall, then switched over? Don't think so. Switching over to massive amounts of meat after not eating meat can be fatal due to ammonia toxicity.

What Was ~ Was Peace

And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. Genesis 1:29

What Is ~ Is The Effects Of Sin

The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Genesis 6:11-13

Including Blood Shedding Beasts

Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.

Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. Genesis 9:3-6

And Truth Shedding Men

Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding? Isaiah 29:16

What Will Be ~ Will Be Peace

The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD. Isaiah 65:25

Eternal Peace To The Few Who Would Dare To Believe

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

And Eternal Damnation To The Many Who Would Not

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. Revelation 22:14-15

____________

Dear One, Won't You Believe

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world. John 11:25-27

You Know You Want To

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20

Believe And Be Blessed Beloved

What shall I render unto the LORD for all his benefits toward me?

I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD. Psalms 116:12-13

Love, Joe

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

Do you think that God:

1. designed Lions to eat grass, and they were forced to adapt after the fall
2. designed Lions to eat grass, but also designed them to change to adapt to eating meat
3. designed Lions to eat meat know apriori what the fall would do, but also designed them to adapt to eating grass until the fall?

Lions are not lions because they roar. They are lions because of how they were built. Everything about them says I am a meat eater. They have canines (omonivorous do too, but bears eat anything and everything, including prey) and big ones at that. They have claws (ominivorous bears do too, and they can be used for digging or tearing), but cat claws are retractable, which is different from other omnivorous claws. Their digestive system is built for meat, they skeleton is built for them being a meat eater. You could probably find a grazer of two that may have a characteristic or two that a lion has, but those animals that are predators are built for that and not grazing.

DF, perhaps you'd like to answer my question above? I've considered the possibility that the fall happened so quickly that carnivorous animals didn't need to eat until after the fall anyway...

I don't think this makes sense. Lions go a few days without eating, if you got into weeks, I think you'd have a dead lion. Are you saying they were grazers from the time they were created, up to the fall, then switched over? Don't think so. Switching over to massive amounts of meat after not eating meat can be fatal due to ammonia toxicity.

So the Almighty Creator God couldn't have done it, seems to be the conclusion.

That doesn't seem to make any sense.

[Shiloh62]

*** disclaimer, I believe Genesis is literal, but with telescoping I think it happened quite some time ago

OK so I've been thinking. We are quick to point out that it's not just humans affected by the fall, but all of creation. So things are not as He designed it, death disease decay etc. So I'm curious. He commanded animals to procreate after their own kind. What is to say that this command has not been violated since the fall? Perhaps speciation is another departure from His intended but thwarted design.

Now if we consider that is possible, and that sufficient time has passed, then is there really anything wrong (contradictory) with observing speciation in fossil records etc?

Just curious

Part B of my musings to come...

Are you saying they might not have procreated after their own kind or what does speciation mean exactly so I can give a better answer.

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

*** disclaimer, I believe Genesis is literal, but with telescoping I think it happened quite some time ago

OK so I've been thinking. We are quick to point out that it's not just humans affected by the fall, but all of creation. So things are not as He designed it, death disease decay etc. So I'm curious. He commanded animals to procreate after their own kind. What is to say that this command has not been violated since the fall? Perhaps speciation is another departure from His intended but thwarted design.

Now if we consider that is possible, and that sufficient time has passed, then is there really anything wrong (contradictory) with observing speciation in fossil records etc?

Just curious

Part B of my musings to come...

Are you saying they might not have procreated after their own kind or what does speciation mean exactly so I can give a better answer.

Speciation simply means that an organism ceases to be able to procreate fertile offspring from among the population of it origin.

For example, if you had a bunch of livestock, whether it would be cows or pigs or sheep or whatever, if you segrigated a group of them and specially bred them until none of the members of that group could produce fertile offspring with the rest of the population from which they were extracted - that would be an example of speciation.

Personally, I think that horses and donkeys stemmed from a common equine pair of ancestors which emerged from the arc a scant few thousand years ago, and have since lost enough in common genetically because of random mutation and natural selection that they are no longer able to produce fertile offspring. That also is an example of speciation.