Isaac (saved) vs. Esau (unsaved)

[Guest]

You are evading the question. I'll make it more explicit.

YES OR NO?

God wanted Adam to sin.

No Evasion Dear One For It Is Explicit; Don't Blame

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. James 1:13-15

God

Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1:16-17

[JohnD]

Yeah, I was going to say (but someone else caught it) that the OP has Jacob and Isaac confused with each other.

Jacob is a depiction of carnality in spiritual training / discipleship.

Esau is a depiction of carnality (one who puts worldly possession and circumstance on par with or above spirituality). One thing that can be said about the Bible over all is that it is the record of God's efforts to wean humanity off of worldliness / the flesh and to spirituality / spiritualism... specifically righteous spirituality. Jacob was no doubt a mess. He was worldly and conniving and prideful about his cons. This he apparently got from his mother Rebecca who concocted the scheme to keep Isaac and Esau from giving Esau the birthrite after all. (Make no mistake, what Esau tried to make out to be a distinct blessing from the birthrite was in actuality the birthrite itself... read the details of the so-called blessing Genesis 27:38-40).

Isaac and Esau tried to outmaneuver team Rebecca and Jacob and they were outmaneuvered by the latter.

But then, Jacob (at the behest of his scheming mother who laid all the blame on Jacob btw see verse 46) went to Mesopotamia to the home turf of conning and the master conniver uncle Laban who conned Jacob continually for some 20 years. But the Lord intervened and showed who is really in charge of life and matters mere mortal men take upon themselves to perform.

Note well the outcomes.

Laban lost a good part of his family wealth plus the household gods Rachel stole (and hoodwinked him from finding).

Jacob got a lesson in the school of hard knocks about his conniving (a 20 year fellowship of sorts).

Esau ended up with all the worldly wealth of Abraham and Isaac after all because Jacob's fortune was made in Mesopotamia from Laban's house.

And in the end, even those fortunes were lost to the great famines at the end of the lives of Jacob and Esau.

In the end, God prevailed in all their lives.

Esau, like so many throughout the generations, never saw the use for spirituality. To those in that kind it is a kind of opiate for the masses. They cannot perveive of it being anything more.

[stacey c]

Yeah, I was going to say (but someone else caught it) that the OP has Jacob and Isaac confused with each other.

Jacob is a depiction of carnality in spiritual training / discipleship.

Esau is a depiction of carnality (one who puts worldly possession and circumstance on par with or above spirituality). One thing that can be said about the Bible over all is that it is the record of God's efforts to wean humanity off of worldliness / the flesh and to spirituality / spiritualism... specifically righteous spirituality. Jacob was no doubt a mess. He was worldly and conniving and prideful about his cons. This he apparently got from his mother Rebecca who concocted the scheme to keep Isaac and Esau from giving Esau the birthrite after all. (Make no mistake, what Esau tried to make out to be a distinct blessing from the birthrite was in actuality the birthrite itself... read the details of the so-called blessing Genesis 27:38-40).

Isaac and Esau tried to outmaneuver team Rebecca and Jacob and they were outmaneuvered by the latter.

But then, Jacob (at the behest of his scheming mother who laid all the blame on Jacob btw see verse 46) went to Mesopotamia to the home turf of conning and the master conniver uncle Laban who conned Jacob continually for some 20 years. But the Lord intervened and showed who is really in charge of life and matters mere mortal men take upon themselves to perform.

Note well the outcomes.

Laban lost a good part of his family wealth plus the household gods Rachel stole (and hoodwinked him from finding).

Jacob got a lesson in the school of hard knocks about his conniving (a 20 year fellowship of sorts).

Esau ended up with all the worldly wealth of Abraham and Isaac after all because Jacob's fortune was made in Mesopotamia from Laban's house.

And in the end, even those fortunes were lost to the great famines at the end of the lives of Jacob and Esau.

In the end, God prevailed in all their lives.

Esau, like so many throughout the generations, never saw the use for spirituality. To those in that kind it is a kind of opiate for the masses. They cannot perveive of it being anything more.

I like how you laid it out there! Point blank and simple

[oak]

Esau vs. Jacob

John db mistake: “Yeah, I was going to say (but someone else caught it) that the OP has Jacob and Isaac confused with each other.”

There was no confusion intended in my OP.

The confusion is inside your own head. The essence of my post was “Ask it will be given to you ; seek, you will find; knock and it will be opened to you.” (Matt 7:7) And though Isaac and Jacob are both on the side of good they are distinguished thru all their faults from Esau: simply because their main concern is God and not themselves (though they do sin and make mistakes). You want to take on Peter and Judas? Also, how many of us are in danger of giving our salvation (birth right) for a meal?

Free Will

Apologia, quoted Eph 1:11

11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will, HCSB

Where in this sentence does it say that God does not establish free will? God choosing evil to survive having His only Son be tempted by it, is an affirmation of choice. If your quote is meant to make a statement about no free will why was the Son tempted? Just for appearances sake, right?

Theories and suppositions:

Whether it be Calvinists (the chosen few) Arminius (God see’s all including those who truly strive for him). How does that change you in terms of doing good or evil? Does either one make you a better Christian?

God

The only thing we can credibly argue is Salvation. As far as God’s Nature and Mind:

“Oh. The depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his ways! ‘For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor? ‘or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid.” (Rom 12:34-36)

Oak

PS Dispensationalism (different rules at different times) replacement theory (The Church replaced the Jews), I took out since I don't want to argue the living by the law vs spirit. Though neither replace loving God first and your fellow man as yourself.

[apologia828]

Esau vs. Jacob

Free Will

Apologia, quoted Eph 1:11

11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will, HCSB

Where in this sentence does it say that God does not establish free will? God choosing evil to survive having His only Son be tempted by it, is an affirmation of choice. If your quote is meant to make a statement about no free will why was the Son tempted? Just for appearances sake, right?

Theories and suppositions:

Whether it be Calvinists (the chosen few) Arminius (God see’s all including those who truly strive for him). How does that change you in terms of doing good or evil? Does either one make you a better Christian?

The text states that everything is decided by God's will so your argument is invalid. You would need to prove how, in light of what it actually says, man has a free will separate from or not previously determined by the will of God. I'm looking at what the text plainly states. The question is not where does it say we don't have free will. Let me restate that we do have a will, just not an autonomous free will. Our will is in submission to God's sovereign will for as the text says, He works EVERYTHING according to HIS will.

Why the Son was tempted is best explained in Hebrews. Christ humbled Himself and was tempted just like us as a high priest who can relate to our sufferings. However, this issue is actually not a mystery because of God's sovereign will but because of the divinity of Christ. We know from Scripture that He was tempted but being God incarnate are we to say that Jesus could have actually sinned? God forbid! God hates sin and would never fall into it no matter how strong the temptation therefore this point is also invalid.

I'm not exactly sure what your second point is. It seems your asking what the point in this debate is in relation to being a good Christian. Well, I'll just say that as a believer in the doctrines of grace our as most often referred to, Calvinism, understanding these concepts have blown up my view of God in a good way. Beginning with the act of salvation God has created and ordained such an amazing and perfect plan that often times I just sit back in awe. This understanding allows glory to be given to God in all things (Soli Deo Gloria). It also gives the believer an incredible security and comfort knowing that no matter how bad things may seem our God is in complete control. However, the most important thing is as always love. To love God and our neighbors. When I look at the way God loved me it makes me want to follows and love Him more!

[oak]

To Apologia:

Perhaps I wrote too hastily and therefore invited your interpretation which of course I don’t agree with. I believe there are three wills at play which are God’s will, man’s will and evil’s will. The point that I was trying to make is that in the Bible we are exposed to God’s will by his relationship with man in terms of salvation after the fall of Adam from Heaven. That said we don’t have much information about God Himself. I hold that a search for God is very helpful however within the framework of salvation. Simply stated much about God we do not know.

You say, we have a “will but it is not autonomous.” This is a very difficult sentence to contemplate. For if I say I have a will but it is not autonomous it is a will that has to be redefined. Be my guest. I believe God is Sovereign and allows man and evil to go against his Will. I neither believe that God wanted evil to break ranks or for Adam to fall. Therefore God’s Sovereignty dictated by Him allows for granting choice to his subjects. I think this shows the greatness of God’s Will. I believe the mistake you’re making is your boxing God into the earthly realm alone while not realizing God’s Will is eternal and goes beyond this earth. For starters explain why Jesus says, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my Kingdom is not from the world.” (John 18:36). But Christ goes to his fate, putting a great qualification in his words (falling into the will of the world). I don’t quite know how to put this, but God’s Sovereign Will can not truly be fully understood by man. That goes for the broken pottery.

As far as the theories I’m glad that you take comfort in being Calvinist. But I worry about some aspects such as pride or not trying to save an unelected person (I don’t attribute this to you but these things can happen). My main point if we choose to believe in a set of values, let them bring us closer to God thru faith. Faith being key.

[enoob57]

It is our pride that presses forward... When our Lord says wait upon Him!

There is acceptance of the resolvable ->and that which cannot<- "by the fulfillment of Scripture His Ways exceed ours" all that can be accomplished is the obedience of waiting for His enlargement of us...

I have seen it taken so far as said- that God is the responsible of sin. If blaspheme of Spirit is attributing any portion of God to that of satan then I wonder at the reverse, attributing any portion of satan to God?

Love, Steven

[stacey c]

Here's the problem's I have with the ideaology that we do not have free will, and everything is done by the will of God. oak touched on these but I would like to elaborate as I see them..........

1 if we have no free will according to salvation that means some were born for life eternal and others to eternal damnation, God is a merciful and just God and sent His Son for the sins of the world, (John 3:16)

2 we are told to preach the gospel to everyone, the gospel means Good News. How can it be the "good news for the world, if many dont even have the option to recieve it? It would be their death sentence.

3 God tells us that Satan is the prince of the powers of the air, and he has governors under him, and that satan has come to kill, steal, and destroy. Now if there is no free will and God does it all according to His sovereign will, it means He kills, steals and destroys, but the Word tells us that all good and perfect gifts come down from above. So is the Word lying? Heaven forbid!

God knows all, He knows the decisions we will make, good or bad, He knows who will accept Him and who wont, He knows the paths we take in this life, giving us free will by know means takes away from His soverinity.

Blessings stacey c

[apologia828]

Here's the problem's I have with the ideaology that we do not have free will, and everything is done by the will of God. oak touched on these but I would like to elaborate as I see them..........

1 if we have no free will according to salvation that means some were born for life eternal and others to eternal damnation, God is a merciful and just God and sent His Son for the sins of the world, (John 3:16)

2 we are told to preach the gospel to everyone, the gospel means Good News. How can it be the "good news for the world, if many dont even have the option to recieve it? It would be their death sentence.

3 God tells us that Satan is the prince of the powers of the air, and he has governors under him, and that satan has come to kill, steal, and destroy. Now if there is no free will and God does it all according to His sovereign will, it means He kills, steals and destroys, but the Word tells us that all good and perfect gifts come down from above. So is the Word lying? Heaven forbid!

God knows all, He knows the decisions we will make, good or bad, He knows who will accept Him and who wont, He knows the paths we take in this life, giving us free will by know means takes away from His sovereignty.

Blessings stacey c

1. I too believe that God is merciful and just. If you believe it to be unfair for God to sovereignly choose those who would be saved then here is what the apostle Paul has already stated in response to your objection:

Romans 9:14-16

14 What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 15 For He tells Moses:

I will show mercy

to whom I will show mercy,

and I will have compassion

on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy. HCSB

That's Paul not me. Therefore if God decides to save one and not another it's up to Him. Again you may not like it but it's what Scripture teaches.

2. This is not a biblical argument but I'll go along with it. It won't be good news for those who love sin. Remember, the darkness hated the light. They don't want to be with God and especially don't want to submit to Him nor can they (Romans 8:7-8). However, regardless of what sinners think it is good news. What is the good news? That Christ would die for His church paying the penalty for their sins and resurrect from the dead conquering death. Unfortunately, Paul clearly states:

Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: ASV

Notice I am attempting to harmonize Scripture by placing them together to understand the full idea. For example:

Jn 3:16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. ASV

And...

Act 13:48

48 And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. ASV

Who is the whosoever (actually "those believing" in the Greek) that believe? Those who had been ordained to eternal life.

3. I realize this is complex but I've already provided a number of examples from Scripture that are very clear. Here are two.

Who killed Jesus?

Isaiah 53:10

10 Yet the LORD was pleased to crush Him severely. When You make Him a restitution offering, He will see His seed, He will prolong His days, and by His hand, the Lord’s pleasure will be accomplished. HCSB

Act 4:27-28

27 “For, in fact, in this city both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, assembled together against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place. HCSB

God used Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel as secondary means to carry out His plan. They did evil but God did good.

We also see something interesting in 1 Samuel 16:14-15

14 Now the Spirit of the Lord had left Saul, and an evil spirit sent from the Lord began to torment him, 15 so Saul’s servants said to him, “You see that an evil spirit from God is tormenting you. HCSB

Who sent this evil Spirit that frustrated Saul so much that later on he attempts to kill David? The text clearly say it was sent from the Lord.

As I've often told my students, satan is just a dog on a chain.

This is what Scripture reveals to us regardless of whether we are comfortable with it or not.

[apologia828]

Here's the problem's I have with the ideaology that we do not have free will, and everything is done by the will of God. oak touched on these but I would like to elaborate as I see them..........

1 if we have no free will according to salvation that means some were born for life eternal and others to eternal damnation, God is a merciful and just God and sent His Son for the sins of the world, (John 3:16)

2 we are told to preach the gospel to everyone, the gospel means Good News. How can it be the "good news for the world, if many dont even have the option to recieve it? It would be their death sentence.

3 God tells us that Satan is the prince of the powers of the air, and he has governors under him, and that satan has come to kill, steal, and destroy. Now if there is no free will and God does it all according to His sovereign will, it means He kills, steals and destroys, but the Word tells us that all good and perfect gifts come down from above. So is the Word lying? Heaven forbid!

God knows all, He knows the decisions we will make, good or bad, He knows who will accept Him and who wont, He knows the paths we take in this life, giving us free will by know means takes away from His sovereignty.

Blessings stacey c

1. I too believe that God is merciful and just. If you believe it to be unfair for God to sovereignly choose those who would be saved then here is what the apostle Paul has already stated in response to your objection:

Romans 9:14-16

14 What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 15 For He tells Moses:

I will show mercy

to whom I will show mercy,

and I will have compassion

on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy. HCSB

That's Paul not me. Therefore if God decides to save one and not another it's up to Him. Again you may not like it but it's what Scripture teaches.

2. This is not a biblical argument but I'll go along with it. It won't be good news for those who love sin. Remember, the darkness hated the light. They don't want to be with God and especially don't want to submit to Him nor can they (Romans 8:7-8). However, regardless of what sinners think it is good news. What is the good news? That Christ would die for His church paying the penalty for their sins and resurrect from the dead conquering death. Unfortunately, Paul clearly states:

Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: ASV

Notice I am attempting to harmonize Scripture by placing them together to understand the full idea. For example:

Jn 3:16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. ASV

And...

Act 13:48

48 And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. ASV

Who is the whosoever (actually "those believing" in the Greek) that believe? Those who had been ordained to eternal life.

3. I realize this is complex but I've already provided a number of examples from Scripture that are very clear. Here are two.

Who killed Jesus?

Isaiah 53:10

10 Yet the LORD was pleased to crush Him severely. When You make Him a restitution offering, He will see His seed, He will prolong His days, and by His hand, the Lord’s pleasure will be accomplished. HCSB

Act 4:27-28

27 “For, in fact, in this city both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, assembled together against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place. HCSB

God used Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel as secondary means to carry out His plan. They did evil but God did good.

We also see something interesting in 1 Samuel 16:14-15

14 Now the Spirit of the Lord had left Saul, and an evil spirit sent from the Lord began to torment him, 15 so Saul’s servants said to him, “You see that an evil spirit from God is tormenting you. HCSB

Who sent this evil Spirit that frustrated Saul so much that later on he attempts to kill David? The text clearly say it was sent from the Lord.

As I've often told my students, satan is just a dog on a chain.

This is what Scripture reveals to us regardless of whether we are comfortable with it or not.

Paul tells us that God will have mercy on whom he will.

What else does Paul tell us?

Romans 11

32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Rom. 5:18

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.

1 Cor 15:21

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.

1 Tim 2:3,4

This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Ok, so are you saying that the Scriptures I quoted are contradicting the Scriptures you quoted? Please observe the big difference I have been trying to point out between our two responses. I put forth much effort in providing the context and exegesis for the Scriptures that I quoted and all I get in return is a string of verses that appear to contradict the verses I quoted. If you disagree with my interpretation of the passages cited then you need to demonstrate why that interpretation is invalid because I can demonstrate how those verses are in complete harmony with one another.