Women Pastors

[Shelby]

Dear Shelby,

I find it interesting that in 20 some odd pages of posts and of 356 posts to this thread, I post only 6 and they were found to be troubling to you, so much so that you are leaving??? Are you sure there's not more to it than you are willing to say? Sometimes the Word can be convicting or refining with very little being said.

In His Love,

Suzanne

Okay,

Only because I don't want to let this end on this comment. I would just like to say nice try. If you read my post, I told you I am more confident in my calling. Yes your posts in particular were condescending, and leading. You know, I am leaving this conversation not because I feel convicted, or I disagree, BUT because this conversation has left Holiness long behind.

I think you would like to think that this has "convicted me" and that you finally converted me, but it isn't going to happen. I have a great peace about it. I just do not have a peace about the direction this discussion has gone. It has been a Shelby attcking thread. Any one and everyone who doesn't agree with me chooses to condemn me. I realize that none of your opinions are going to change after 24 pages, so why can't you see that neither are mine.

I am of the thinking that I don't know it all. I am open for God to reveal new truths to me. But it seems that you have formed your beliefs and are going to conquer the world with them.

God bless, I hope you. Because, it will not hinder the Spirit. God can use even your attempts to win others to his kingdom. He can even use mine. What a thought.

You this all comes down to what God is convicting or not convicting me of. So I don't feel the need to explain it to you. I feel I have over and over, yet I don't think I was able to convey that well.

I never said I wanted to have authority over a man. But as it turns out, in my job, I have been asked to oversee a few.

I don't see any harm in that. I am still in the same boat as Keslc, but it seems you think I am going towards Women's Activism. I am just not able to explain myself well enough.

I am sorry for not spelling it out to your understanding or liking. Maybe Katie (Keslc) will explain it better. Whatever she says, you may take as my words as well. We have been best friends for 14 years, and I am confident that she will be able to say this better than I .

GBU

[gypc]

Wow!!! This thing is still going......

[tsth]

Nope, I think I've said all that I am lead to say, so I'm done.

:il:

BTW, thanks WIP for your kindness.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Kabowd]

Shelby, can you quote where you feel like you were attacked? I've been reading this thread a long time (from back when I was the one being attacked) and I really don't see where you were attacked. You say others have had a condescending attitude, but I've seen this in you as well. For instance the comments towards me about my age (early on) then the same comments made to Nick's Girl..and then about her marriage...all of those I felt were inappropriate and irrelevant to the topic. So, if you haven't left..I'd really like to see the quotes you are talking about where you feel you were mistreated. Thanks.

Also..if you can't handle a discussion where ppl disagree with you, how do you expect to handle being in authority over a ministry?

[Nicks Girl]

I have to agree with Tess. I really don't see where anyone was condescending to you, or attacking you personally. I'm sorry you feel this way.

[keslc]

Ah kelsc, I found your post quite refreshing

however, I'm not quite following what you are saying here. (it's me, not you, lol) I don't see how an adulterer or homosexual can be justified ever (except after repentance, maybe) in holding a ministry position. I probably just not getting what you mean.

Well, I'm not saying justified in the eyes of God, but in the eyes of man. The paradigm often presented to justify women being in authority over men is that scripture is taken out of context (yet they never substantiate how) and that they know God is calling them to be a pastor. It all looks fine on the surface, but, well, take this as an example:

"Yes, I'm a homosexual. The Bible doesn't talk against homosexuality, the scriptures people list are taken out of context and were meant for the culture of the day. I know God is calling me to be a minister."

So it's the same logic. The paradigm Shelby used (and I'm not picking on shelby, just showing the problems with the way of thinking) could easily be used to justify others to become pastors who aren't qualified.

The underlined statement...what of this? In our church, husbands and wives attend seminary together and are both ordained. Then they are sent to pastor a church together. I agree that I should never hold a position in which I am mentoring or discpling a man or group of men (I think there are issues in which men and women should not discuss with people of the opposite sex unless they are married to that person, and there are too many issues of safety, appearances, temptations, etc.) However, I may be in a position to make decisions regarding the church, etc. I also would still be under submission to my husband in our pastoral roles as well as our marriage. Just curious of your thoughts.

Not only do I think it's okay, I think it should be mandatory for husband and wife to attend seminary together and be co-pastors. Obviously the male would have the final authority (as in your case), but there is biblically nothing wrong with what you presented.

Again thanks for your response SuperJew. I do appreciate it!

I understand how Shelby's viewpoint came across and was viewed, however, she is in the exact same boat as I am. Same situation. (even if her approach differed from mine) I understand the defense you are speaking of and how that is not a great defense and that others have used the same defense. However, this is not exactly what Shelby and I were meaning I can see where you see that though). Yes, I do think there is some misunderstanding on these scriptures and some people may take the word of other people or their "doctrines" as the final word and never consult God Himself in understanding what is being said by Paul. I think we were only trying to point out the danger in that scenario as well. Now, because she is my friend and sister in Christ, I feel I do need to say that I know Shelby and she is very sincere in seeking the Lord and His will for her life (she is an awesome witness to me in my life, saved me in literally my marriage by knocking some Godly sense into me once and I would give my life for her). She may have a hard time expressing herself and such, but she is a girl following after God with all her heart. (BTW, SJ, this is not directed at you, I'm speaking in general, just for clarification) Also, I believe Shelby holds the same ideas I have in regards to being a "co-pastor" with her husband and not being the one to mentor or disciple a man or group of men, as I stated in earlier posts. I think there were a few people even disagreeing with that type of situation and that was what was difficult a bit. I think in the whirlwind of the internet there were misunderstandings, assumptions, and difficulties hearing each other and perhaps difficulties in expressing ourselves which has led to hurt and unrest in our family. I pray each of us will take this and learn from it by seeking the Lord in everything and learning to grow more dependant on Him each day. ( I know I am continually learning that!) and that even if we cannot come to aggreement on issues like this, that we would still remember who we are and WHOSE we are and we would not allow Satan reign in our house. I know you are all in agreement with that. Bless you all. :hug:

[Shelby]

Shelby, can you quote where you feel like you were attacked? I've been reading this thread a long time (from back when I was the one being attacked) and I really don't see where you were attacked. You say others have had a condescending attitude, but I've seen this in you as well. For instance the comments towards me about my age (early on) then the same comments made to Nick's Girl..and then about her marriage...all of those I felt were inappropriate and irrelevant to the topic. So, if you haven't left..I'd really like to see the quotes you are talking about where you feel you were mistreated. Thanks.

Also..if you can't handle a discussion where ppl disagree with you, how do you expect to handle being in authority over a ministry?

Okay this is going to take a minute. There are so many things that need clarification. I will first say that when I responded lately it was immediately after I read some of your posts. It was usually when I was shocked and frustrated at not being understood. So here it goes bear with me. Also, Tess, you will not see your name in this list because none of my posts were directed towards you.

Posts by Nicks Girl

I don't understand how women can twist the bible to make it say what they want, or what THEY think the Bible meant.

You ARE twisting scripture if you say that it's a matter between God and each person

I'm simply stating what the Bible says, and that as Christians we say we believe the whole Bible, yet people still try to make it say what they want.

However, instead of answering my questions on this topic.

Anyone could say that God told them to do something or that it's between them or God, but God would NOT and does NOT contradict himself.

Thus far you haven't been able to respond to our questions and the scriptures that have been posted, other than saying you just feel comfortable with your position of authority.

I do not "have a position of authority. I am an ordained minister. That is all I said. I happen to be in social work at the moment as my husband prepares to go into seminary. I applied for this job to provide assistance to inmates upon their release fro prison and to offer them pen pals, Bible studies, and prayer support while they are in. It also came to be once in this position that I have been given the responsibility of all Community Service Workers for the entire campus. There are men who are CSW and it is my job to instruct them on what they need to do for the day to earn their hours. I just threw up questions like, "what about Senior Pastor, and people assumed that I am all for a woman taking over a leadership role in the church. After being ordained, I was sent to a church in Michigan, and was the Asst. Pastor. There I was mostly in charge of the childrens programming, but I also ran our fundraising efforts and worked with the Shelter. In both positions I have men who chose to apply for a position under me. It was my duty to do it to the best of my ability. Of course I did not Lord over anyone. I was quite young at that time and was very conscious that most of the men I worked with were my elders so I usually went about it in a very democratic way, but in the end, I was responsible. see, I DID NOT CHOOSE THESE POSITIONS.

Therefore any modernistic ism or enlightenment or movement does not change an unchanging God. That means feminism, the women's liberation movement, etc, cannot and must not pervert the purity of God's Word, or His people.

Here is the biggest misconception. FEMINIST? Not even. I am not even close to being a feminist. I would love to be able to stay home and be a house wife and rasie children. My husband and I both hold very traditional roles. I do all the inside chores, for the most part, and he does all the outside. He is very chivalrous. I can't tell you the last time I put gas in my own car, took out the trash, or even lifted a heavy box. I also am submissive to his direction for our spiritual life. He supports and approves of the different ministries I like to be involved in in our church. He is behind me 100% as am I of him. I never ever have had a women's rights agenda. I just threw out questions, and knew that there were times when authority would be inevitable for me and my husband being co-pastors. If my husband were to get real sick when we were pastors of a church again, then his responsibilities would fall to me since we are "co-pastors". This is all I meant. I think this is the head of the hostility I felt, no one really attacked me, they just questioned my integrity and calling, as well as salvation. That hurt, because I thought that this was a safe place ot share. But when people are so blunt as to say such things as you will see, and yes they are snippets, but they are the ones that really tugged me. It wasn't because of any convictions, it is because this has been a place of refuge and learning for me, and it turned into a very ugly damaging place, and I was frustrated and hurt that God's people would gang up and bombard a fellow believer. (that is what I feel) I am not hurt personally, not really, I am just disappointed of what this conversation took to.

Deirdre, I do not blame what you "believe" on your age. I point out that your age has a factor in your RESPONSES and how you go about relaying your "opinions".

No, my post was in sincere care for you. I know what it is like to be a young married woman, not as young as you are, but I do know even at 23 it was very hard for me at the time.

I was not being rude or attacking at all when I mentioned your age. Atleast I wasn't trying, at the moment I was trying to show you how I saw it play a part in your response. I never EVER said that your marriage had anything to do with this subject. I quoted myself above to reiterate, that I felt you were responding diffferently on these boards, and the turning point that I noticed was your marriage. I was trying to offer support and encouragement. It obviously was not taken that way and my apologies.

Posts by SJ

The hypothetical you offer is wrong though. You're asserting that God would go against His Word, thus in the hypothetical my answer is she thinks she's called but really isn't.

* You're ignoring the entire context in which I answer questions. You took one answer off of two letters that I explained for KMB and are basing your security off of it. Read the entire topic, what you are preaching is wrong.

* The women your'e speaking of have already been proven in this topic to hold no authority. no one challenged it because no one could. it's biblical fact.

* You're basing your entire belief on what you "beleive" God told you, yet God says women can't hold authority over men, you're saying He told you He can. I'll trust the Bible.

Does no one see the hostility in this. This is one of the things that could have said in Christian love.

You can say you've prayed over the scripture, but I will be blunt and say you are simply being hard headed. God does not go against His Word.

Again.

"Regardless of what scripture says, I feel God is calling me"

I never ever said this, illuded to this, or would support this. This was another way of putting me down, and trying to make me look uneducated and self centered. I did not appreciate it. I live by scripture. Scripture is my refuge, and I find it offensive to use it against a fellow believer as a tool to bring them down or prove a point.

It usually resorts to unprovable historical context or feelings/callings.

Again.

We recognize it, however the same thought process that is presented could be used by anyone living in sin.

How is me being a woman, living in sin. And please read the above regarding my actual role within my marriage and position.

"Yes, I'm a homosexual. The Bible doesn't talk against homosexuality, the scriptures people list are taken out of context and were meant for the culture of the day. I know God is calling me to be a minister."

See how this is offesive. How can me being a woman be compared to a homosexual who CHOOSES to live in sin?

So it's the same logic. The paradigm Shelby used (and I'm not picking on shelby, just showing the problems with the way of thinking) could easily be used to justify others to become pastors who aren't qualified.

Ditto as above.

Posts by Tsth

So do you disagree that God implemented a certain order within man and woman? Or are you inclined to say it's circumstantial?

You sidestepped the question rather nicely.

By your response you do believe that it is circumstantial I take it?

NEVER once did I say anything was circumstancial, and this shows how words were put in my mouth, and then later referred to as my own. I don't pick and choose scriptures to support my stances. I read the Bible and pray for God to show me his understanding of His word for me. Circumstancial, never ever!

I just find it deeply troubling when God's implemented order is dismissed, and then one is expected to consider your teachings on the Scriptures as authoritative.

Who dismissed it? I just offered up other questions for discussion? I think the Lord will do the work of leading those who he wants to hear his message through me to me. I don't choose the people. I just follow where God leads me and my husband. And I do preach and teach. That doesn't mean I have authority over any one. I gave the instances when I do or have had or might have any authority over men. It would never be a personal choice. I have been a social worker for many years, and I have to instruct people, including men, on steps to help them to suceed. I encourage and support their efforts to make a better life for themselves.

Would you agree that any lesbian/gay minister would use the same justification that you just did above, as well?

Please refer to my post above in regards to SJs posts regarding this issue.

It all comes down to feelings, and a special revelation that just happens to go against the Scriptures.

That is just not true. This is all by your assumption of what you thought I believe.

As far as you making your 4 or 5 Scriptures statement, I can only say ONE would be enough, if it was God's Word, so 4 or 5 should seem like an abundance.

I meant in sentence fragments, not in scriptural context. Those particular scriptures have solidified my calling to be a minister of the Gospel, and I am very comfortable with them. I do not ignore scriptures because I don't think they are relevant to me. Once again, most of this is based on an assumption of what I believe.

I find it interesting that in 20 some odd pages of posts and of 356 posts to this thread, I post only 6 and they were found to be troubling to you, so much so that you are leaving???

Well, we will just say that held back no punches. I can appreciate that you were trying to defend or support your stance, but it could have been said better and in a more loving manor.

Posts by LarryT

Just because someone thinks that God spoke to them does not mean that He did. Joseph Smith(mormons) thought God spoke to him, Muhammed(Islam) thought God spoke to him.

This was not directed at me, and I know that, but this encompassed the whole feeling that I was getting from many people. I was being compared to outrageous people who were not heaven bound. I may sin, but I do not have a lifestyle of sin. That is what was so offensive.

Posts by WIP

Not everyone is going to pat you on the back and embrace your beliefs. That's just the way it is. Don't mean to be short, but people are going to have their own beliefs, and they won't agree with yours and they have Scripture to back it. If you fall apart every time someone disagrees with you, where is your conviction? Maybe that is very telling?

I never ever expected that. BUT since I am on a CHRISTIAN forum, I did not expect to be shunned the way I was. I was very much misunderstood just by the hypotheticals I used, and because I am ordained. I never once said that I want to have authority over a man. I would prefer not to. I cannot relate as well.

Over all I feel that because I offer up hypotheticals, and a different opinion that God can call and use women to be ministers, that I am a blasphemer and living against God's word on purpose for my own agenda. I am just open that God can really use any and every one. He has a purpose for each of us. He called me at a young age, and there has never been a question in my mind that this calling was not from him.

One last thing to add to this book I have written: This has never been an issue for me. Never in my life, not even once have I ever thought, oh, but I am a woman! Never. I guess it is my upbringing, and relationship with the Lord, as well as the Church I have belonged to. It never has been an issue for us. It was never a topic of discussion. We all believed that God was the ultimate authority and had the desire to call every one for a purpose to save lost souls. He could, can,a nd does call every one. I am humbled and energized that he would call me for such a task as to be a minister. It has never been anything I have taken lightly or irreverently. I will continue to follow God's will for my life, as he reveals it to me through scritpure, prayer, and Godly wisdom whom he has called to minister to me.

I am sorry for anything that I have said that has offended any of you. Often I do realize I responded in defense of myself, and it was usually a hasty response instead of taking time. But there were many other times where I really thought and prayed about what to say, and still felt misunderstood. There came a point of no return, and I felt bombarded and cornered, yet I knew that God would not have me cave, I am very strong in my faith that God has called me, and he re affirmed it through much prayer during this whole discussion, mainly because of how much some of the above comments were getting at me. And I know and believe now that Satan was attacking me, to try and shake my faith, and to break me down. God held me up, and eventually helped me to see that it has been a huge misconception of what I believe. So I have tried to use this post to explain what I do believe.

I do believe the word of God is infallible, and I believe that God is working in me right at this moment helping me to gain a greater understanding of the enormous responsibility it is to be a minister of His Word.

I do apologize for the tone of some of my posts. I also hope that this clarifies my stance. I really feel that I cannot explain it no other way.

LAST - really - I have learned alot. About myself, my calling, and my way of relaying and relating to others on this board. I appreciate your patience. I am a gentle soul, and realize that I do get hurt easily after I have let my guard down, and I have on here because of such great friendships and fellowship I have gained on here. I guess I felt as if my own family was shunning me and I could not understand why, when I didn't believe what they said I did.

All for the Glory of God.

Shelby

[Nicks Girl]

Again, I'm sorry you took those as a personal insult, I wasn't directing them solely at you. As I've made clear in other posts, they were generalizations.

[Orr v'emet]

I read the last couple pages of this thread and frankly, I am disturbed and saddened. Perhaps it is the gift of mercy that God has given me that makes me a little sensitive but none the less, our sister Shelby has been hurt. I have been following this thread, searching for myself an answer to the queston and I feel that some (names I won't mention) have been a little over zealous in speaking what they believe is truth. Scripture seems to indicate that a woman shouldn't be in an authority position but culture of the day throws a kink into it. What also presents a problem is that I don't doubt for a second that Shelby and Katie believe God has called them into a ministry that happens to be an authority postion in which God is using them to further His kingdom. Shelby exposed herself and shared her heart with us yet instead of leaving well enough alone some felt the need to further complicate matters and come right back at her. Some may be right and some may be wrong. I think everyone clearly stated what they believe and well enough should be left alone. Perhaps some should read George's post about dangers of a lop-sided msg....

can read the topic here

[Nicks Girl]

I have no doubt that those who are in ministry positions such as minister, pastor, etc. Do believe they are called there. I didn't want to offend them, as I said, I was talking in a generalization. However, the Bible seems very clear on this subject. I really don't want anyone so offended by this that they can't or don't want to come back. I really don't see this as that extreme, that people would think they'd have to leave. I don't know their hearts, they do, and if they are truly comfortable, and happy with their choice, and feel no conviction otherwise, that is their business. This was only my personal opinions backed up by Scripture. I have prayed much about this subject, and feel God was very clear in what He meant.

The only thing that concerns me is that we as Christians can get so offended with each other, that something like this can get in the way of fellowship. Trust me, I disagree with many things, even within my own church, but that is between each individual and God. I love this board, and the people on this board, regardless of our differeing opinoins, and I'd hate to see anyone go.