nebula Posted November 27, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Yod You stated above: I've got no objection to theological speculation, but I acknowledge it as just that....speculation. I put no trust in end-times scenarios from people who view the church as separate from Israel, though they cleverly present their predictions are biblically hard fact. I do believe there is a linkage between the one Daniel speaks of (prince of the people to come) and the "man of perdition", yet also believe it's entirely possible that they are not linked. The Church or Body of Christ is made up of both Jew and Gentile. The Church is not Israel, but some from Israel are in the Body/Church. Yod is speaking of how the "Church" a long time ago divorced itself from all things associated with Israel - 7th day Sabbath, Feast of the Lord, etc. - and forcing Jews to "convert" to Christianity as if it were a separate religion and not the fulfillment of their own faith. We are the wild branches who have been grafted in, yet we act as if they, the natural branches, are the ones who don't belong as they are. Go figure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 the beast that was, and is not and is to come, comes out of the bottomless pit....... can a nation come out of the bottomless pit.??? can a person? This seems to be symbolism since it wouldn't be literally possible for either. And the symbolism is that they are demonically inspired. Yes, a beast or a man could. How do you make an image of a nation and give it power to talk.... The words used are "makes an image"and there is no description. The image could be a logo...a picture...a statue...it could be a statue of an eagle as easily as a pig or a bear or a person. Who worships a country? They worship the image that the beast tells them to worship....but this kind of worship is probably demanded rather than given as we think of in worshipping God. For example in the story of Shadrack, Meshack, and Abednigo people were told to bow to a particular steeple every day. This is worship whether they did so in faith or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Yod You stated above: I've got no objection to theological speculation, but I acknowledge it as just that....speculation. I put no trust in end-times scenarios from people who view the church as separate from Israel, though they cleverly present their predictions are biblically hard fact. I do believe there is a linkage between the one Daniel speaks of (prince of the people to come) and the "man of perdition", yet also believe it's entirely possible that they are not linked. The Church or Body of Christ is made up of both Jew and Gentile. The Church is not Israel, but some from Israel are in the Body/Church. Yod is speaking of how the "Church" a long time ago divorced itself from all things associated with Israel - 7th day Sabbath, Feast of the Lord, etc. - and forcing Jews to "convert" to Christianity as if it were a separate religion and not the fulfillment of their own faith. We are the wild branches who have been grafted in, yet we act as if they, the natural branches, are the ones who don't belong as they are. Go figure! It's a matter of "where is the center"? In greco-christianity, man's intellect is the center of all judgment...and the church (as defined by greco-theology) is the center of God's plan for the Universe. Biblically, not so much. God is the center of all judgment and Israel has always been His plan of salvation for the world. There is no "Plan B" The faithful of the nations are added to the faithful of Israel. There is no other kingdom, and no other agency for the faithful to be included in the Bride of Messiah found within the scriptures. Again I readily confess that men have ignored this fact and created a separate entity, while proclaiming to speak for God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 It's a matter of "where is the center"? In greco-christianity, man's intellect is the center of all judgment...and the church (as defined by greco-theology) is the center of God's plan for the Universe. Biblically, not so much. God is the center of all judgment and Israel has always been His plan of salvation for the world. There is no "Plan B" The faithful of the nations are added to the faithful of Israel. There is no other kingdom, and no other agency for the faithful to be included in the Bride of Messiah found within the scriptures. Again I readily confess that men have ignored this fact and created a separate entity, while proclaiming to speak for God. Amen~! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted November 28, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 Too All Nero never sat in the temple of God, he committed suicide. He was not the A/C, he never had a false prophet to make all bow down to him. The book of Revelation was written about 91 A.D.. In Christ Montana Marv Marv, Marv, Marv...I never stated that Nero was 'the antichrist', if you read what I've written, I deny the existence of an individual dictator antichrist figure because the Biblical evidence mitigates against it. Did Nero stand in the temple of God? Yes. The word used in 2 Thess 2 for temple is naos, which is the same term that Paul uses to describe the human body as the temple of God. Nero's body was intended (as are all human bodies) to be the temple of the Holy Spirit. As for your assertion that Nero never had a false prophet which made others worship him, Rev 13 says that the beast does indeed have a false prophet. Nero is the personfication of that nation beast, and it was the Sanhedrin which acted as the agent of Rome which caused the apostate portion of Israel to worship the Emperor. "We have no King but Caesar!" If those words sound familiar, they well should. It was the priests and scribes who led those very cheers as Jesus stood before Pilate, and it was those priests and scribes who incited the people to deny their Messiah and ask for a murderer to be released. IN causing the people to deny Christ, they caused them to worship Rome (and the dragon who gave Rome its power). Was Revelation written in AD 90? There is considerable question to whether that is true. I invite you to read Before Jerusalem Fell by Dr. Kenneth Gentry. Dr. Gentry cites a lot of excellent evidence to mitigate for a pre-AD 70 writing of Revelation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted November 28, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,136 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted November 28, 2011 Yod Here is what you have stated; Right....salvation has come to the gentiles who have been joined to the commonwealth of Israel. That remnant are the natural branches which have not been broken off like "some" were. The "church" separate from Israel is not a concept found in the scriptures, though I don't deny that there are churches like that. The "Church" and "Israel" being the same is not found in Scripture. Christ is the Vine, and we are the Branches. All are joined to the Vine Jesus Christ. Israel was joined to the Vine, but was pulled out due to unbelief. The Church/Bride of Christ is now joined to the Vine; we are attached at our salvation. Who else is attached to the Vine. How about all the OT saints, for they also need to be attached to the Vine, and many of these OT saints are pre Abraham, thus not of Israel. For no one came come to the Father, except through Jesus Christ. This includes all OT Saints, NT Saints, and Israel. All need to be attached to the Vine. Zech 12:10-14 - And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wife's by themselves, the clan of the house or David and their wife's, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wife's, the clan of the house of Levi and their wife's, and the clan of Shimei and their wife's, and all the rest of the clans and their wife"s. This is referring to the clans from Israel who are alive at that time. Here Israel is grafted back into the Vine, Jesus Christ; the one who they had pierced. This is happening at the beginning of the 1,000 year reign of Christ. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted November 28, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Yod Here is what you have stated; Right....salvation has come to the gentiles who have been joined to the commonwealth of Israel. That remnant are the natural branches which have not been broken off like "some" were. The "church" separate from Israel is not a concept found in the scriptures, though I don't deny that there are churches like that. The "Church" and "Israel" being the same is not found in Scripture. He didn't actually say they are "the same". What He is saying is that the ekklesia (the actual word used in Scripture, which means "assembly" rather than an institution) is not separate from Israel. Christ is the Vine, and we are the Branches. All are joined to the Vine Jesus Christ. Israel was joined to the Vine, but was pulled out due to unbelief. The Church/Bride of Christ is now joined to the Vine; we are attached at our salvation. Who else is attached to the Vine. How about all the OT saints, for they also need to be attached to the Vine, and many of these OT saints are pre Abraham, thus not of Israel. For no one came come to the Father, except through Jesus Christ. This includes all OT Saints, NT Saints, and Israel. All need to be attached to the Vine. Do you realize you just mixed analogies? The Vine (John 15) is one analogy, the olive tree (Romans 11) is another. You can't mix analogies like that. The Olive Tree is a unique symbol in Scripture. There was a reason Paul used the olive tree for his analogy. Do you understand this? Zech 12:10-14 - And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wife's by themselves, the clan of the house or David and their wife's, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wife's, the clan of the house of Levi and their wife's, and the clan of Shimei and their wife's, and all the rest of the clans and their wife"s. This is referring to the clans from Israel who are alive at that time. Here Israel is grafted back into the Vine, Jesus Christ; the one who they had pierced. This is happening at the beginning of the 1,000 year reign of Christ. In Christ Montana Marv What about those from Israel who are believers in Yeshua now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted November 28, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 Guys...what does this have to do with antichrist? Absolutely nothing. Please stay on topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Guys...what does this have to do with antichrist? Absolutely nothing. Please stay on topic. Actually it has a lot to do with how this post-biblical institution called the "church" interprets the scriptures apart from Israel being the focal point of all prophecy. It forces contradictions throughout prophetic writings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted November 28, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,136 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted November 28, 2011 Bold You asked me about Gentry: Was Revelation written in AD 90? There is considerable question to whether that is true. I invite you to read Before Jerusalem Fell by Dr. Kenneth Gentry. Dr. Gentry cites a lot of excellent evidence to mitigate for a pre-AD 70 writing of Revelation. I don't believe in preterism, therefore I do not believe what Kenneth Gentry peddles. He also is a postmill. For preterism needs to pre date Revelation to make their timeline work. They must allegorize the literal, they must interchange meanings. Nero did not occupy any other persons soul (temple of God). For he was human. For Gods temple is in Jerusalem and was first built by King Solomon for worship. Now back to the "antichrist" - 1 John 2:18 - Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. Now Nero may be considered one the "these many antichrists", but not the "antichrist". For 1,2,3rd John was written in about 90-95 A.D. As was Revelation in abut 90-91 A.D. These dates are confirmed by the experts of their field. The A/C is a person. Someone is coming. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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