Is The Bride the restrainer?

[Bold Believer]

In context;

2Th 1:6

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

2Th 1:7

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Paul is writing this second letter to the Thessalonians to comfort them as they are in tribulation for their witness.

He is talking about the second coming of the Lord as the rest that these folks seek.

He goes on to say that those tribulators will be punished.

Furthermore;

2Th 2:1

¶ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

He is now going to speak to the false full pre-terism that is provoking these Saints. he is going to speak about this second coming and the gathering of the Saint's unto Christ.

2Th 2:2

That you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, that the day of the Lord is at hand.

It appears that these Saints at Thessalonica were troubled by a lie and were afarid that the Lord had already come. It was a Gnostic heresy that Paul was confronting. He was claiming Apostolic authority over what they had heard. You will note that those speaking hadn't spoken under this authority. There was no word nor a letter from them, Paul and the Apostles. They weren't preaching it either.

2Th 2:3

¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

That day would not come until there was a complete apostasy from the Faith. The son of perdition spoken of also applied to Judas. The same word was used for Judas.

2Th 2:5

Do you not remember, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Paul had told them before and was now once again refuting this heresy. It was refuted many times.

It's still being refuted today.

2Th 2:6

And now you know what restrains that he might be revealed in his time.

And now you know what restrains.What restrains is the Truth of the Word and Apostolic authority.

2Th 2:7

For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now restrains will do so, until he be taken out of the way.

Iniquity was already at work, He who restarins, Christ and His Word, will continue to do so, until the coming of the Lord, at which time the son of perdition will be taken out of the way.

2Th 2:8

And then shall that Wicked One be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

He will be revealed at the coming of the Lord, how will the Lord rid us of Him and make Him evident? With the Spirit of His mouth, His Word and the Apostolic authority which was already being apostasized by the very Gonstic heresy that Paul was refuting and had been refuting. The brightness of the Lords coming will illuminate the desperate apostasy and darkness.

2Th 2:9

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Even the anti-christ. The embodiment of this apostasy.

What is Paul talking about?

2Th 2:15

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which you have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

That we hold fast to what he and the other Apostles were teaching and preaching about. That we not soon be shaken by tribulation or even false Gnostic heresies.

Whether Paul had told them personally or through an Epistle they should acknowledge Apostolic authority.

You see Diotrephes loves to be first and he puts out those who seek after Apostolic authority and hold fast to traditions and Epistles whether written or by Word.

Ditrephes is a bad dude. He's raising his head steadily in today's church and we will soon see the full embodiment of his spirit. He puts off Apostolic authority and loves to be first. You can read about him in 3John.

Peace,

Dave

Friend...Gnosticism was not even on the scene yet. Paul died in 67 at Nero's hand. John doesn't even mention Gnostic antichrists until about 95 or so.

[Bold Believer]

Seeing as the Bride is a she, then who is 'He'?

2 Thessalonians 2:7

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

Yet, the Bride will be removed, and what does that mean other than the fact that the Holy Spirit, who resides in the Bride will be removed out of the way. Therefore, most Christians hold to the opinion that the restrainer mentioned in this passage is none other than Holy Spirit.

The text says absolutely NOTHING about the Bride being removed, you're reading that INTO IT. The restrainer restrains for a reason, that he (the man of sin) may be revealed in his time (i.e. at the proper time). That is what says to me that the restrainer is God's will. God will reveal the man of sin when He so desires, but the iniquity was present in Paul's time ( I believe, in Nero. who did all of the things said the man of sin would do, but on a smaller scale). Also, 'most Christians' do not hold to that opinion; if they did, it would not be necessary to discuss the matter.

[Floatingaxe]

Seeing as the Bride is a she, then who is 'He'?

2 Thessalonians 2:7

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

Yet, the Bride will be removed, and what does that mean other than the fact that the Holy Spirit, who resides in the Bride will be removed out of the way. Therefore, most Christians hold to the opinion that the restrainer mentioned in this passage is none other than Holy Spirit.

The text says absolutely NOTHING about the Bride being removed, you're reading that INTO IT. The restrainer restrains for a reason, that he (the man of sin) may be revealed in his time (i.e. at the proper time). That is what says to me that the restrainer is God's will. God will reveal the man of sin when He so desires, but the iniquity was present in Paul's time ( I believe, in Nero. who did all of the things said the man of sin would do, but on a smaller scale). Also, 'most Christians' do not hold to that opinion; if they did, it would not be necessary to discuss the matter.

God's will is never personified in Scripture, but Holy Spirit is.

[goldust59]

ok Goldust, here it is!

http://www.fivedoves...2010/jim730.htm

There are two articles here that you may find interesting.

Thanks joi.

Did find them interesting-Especially what was said about the genetic manipulation & how that would sweep through the earth when the end time tribulation begins. Transhumanism has such a huge following already & the general public doesn't have a clue, even though it's been going on for years.( Wasn't long ago I found out myself.) The transhumanists are having their first ever "transhumanist conference" this weekend (Dec 3-4, 2011) in Hong Kong.

... And, about the abuse of children by the occult. That is the most evil thing I have ever looked into!

Odd that this was about the Bride being the restrainer-- I was thinking something similar to that a couple weeks ago, but I didn't take time to look into what I was thinking on. Guess I better make time to be still before the Lord on this matter & see what He 's trying to show me about it.

I've been screaming at the top of my lungs about the Humanist Manifesto and humanism being Magog ever since I came here, but it hasn't done much good because so many are steeped in premillennialism and pre-tribulationism. Satan-Gog is the string puller of his puppet Magog. You can call it transhumanism or humanism or one-worldism but God calls it Magog, so I call it Magogism. It's a case of a rose by any other name. William Bowen's book Globalism: America's demise and Jay Adams' book The Time Is At Hand both played a big part in my realizing that we are much further along the eschatological timeline that any of us realize.

Humanism has encroached into governments worldwide since the advent of the Humanist Manifesto 2 in 1973. If you read it (look at my old posts, I have one whole post on it and how it is Magog's constitution) you can see where so much of the UN's treaties come from. Humanists think religious people in general and Christians in particular are literally insane. The HM2 as much as states so.

Here is one paragraph from the Preface to the document:

"As in 1933, humanists still believe that traditional theism, especially faith in the prayer-hearing God, assumed to live and care for persons, to hear and understand their prayers, and to be able to do something about them, is an unproved and outmoded faith. Salvationism, based on mere affirmation, still appears as harmful diverting people with false hopes of heaven hereafter. Reasonable minds look to other means for survival." And that is just one paragraph of one portion.

Humanists think we're nuts. If they can get a mental health law passed in the UN or World Court, we could all be put in the nuthouse for believing. If you think that possibility is far-fetched, think again. It was a very common tactic of the KGB to have believers placed into mental asylums.

Humanism has been around since the fall. Just what do you think Babylon was?

Just because you've been screaming about full pre-terism doesn't mean its true.

I don't think you were addressing me here Matthitjah, but I just wanted to say that I don't believe the preterist view of prophecy.

I don't see how you got preterist from BB's post either. I think the humanist view will have an even greater impact on the church in the near future.

satan is still telling mankind that they can be as gods & now they have the technology to 'help' themselves toward that goal. When the church refuses to go along with the agenda of being 'progressed' to the next level of 'evolution' we will become outlaws to them. As Bold Believer said, they already see us as crazy to believe traditional theism.

[goldust59]

But which of the Trinity did Christ send after He ascended to heaven? Who is here with us now? Since the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all represented by the male -er not -ess it is then by process of elimination the Holy Spirit and cannot be the Church because it is represented as a Bride.

Does not the Holy Spirit need to remain so that those who accept Christ during the tribulation can be there for them?

Is it even possible that God's Spirit can be removed as He is omnipresent?

I do not profess to have the answer, but I did, nevertheless find the op very interesting.

BB, I think Israel will be the object of the man of sin's interest. After all that is where all the action will be.

I don't believe the Holy Spirit is removed or that He doesn't continue working during the tribulation of the end.

Bride is not the only name that the church is referred to in scripture. Christians are also called sons of God & Body of Christ, both of which are masculine terms.

Could be God is waiting for us to reach maturity before the 'antichrist' comes to power.

[Matthitjah]

ok Goldust, here it is!

http://www.fivedoves...2010/jim730.htm

There are two articles here that you may find interesting.

Thanks joi.

Did find them interesting-Especially what was said about the genetic manipulation & how that would sweep through the earth when the end time tribulation begins. Transhumanism has such a huge following already & the general public doesn't have a clue, even though it's been going on for years.( Wasn't long ago I found out myself.) The transhumanists are having their first ever "transhumanist conference" this weekend (Dec 3-4, 2011) in Hong Kong.

... And, about the abuse of children by the occult. That is the most evil thing I have ever looked into!

Odd that this was about the Bride being the restrainer-- I was thinking something similar to that a couple weeks ago, but I didn't take time to look into what I was thinking on. Guess I better make time to be still before the Lord on this matter & see what He 's trying to show me about it.

I've been screaming at the top of my lungs about the Humanist Manifesto and humanism being Magog ever since I came here, but it hasn't done much good because so many are steeped in premillennialism and pre-tribulationism. Satan-Gog is the string puller of his puppet Magog. You can call it transhumanism or humanism or one-worldism but God calls it Magog, so I call it Magogism. It's a case of a rose by any other name. William Bowen's book Globalism: America's demise and Jay Adams' book The Time Is At Hand both played a big part in my realizing that we are much further along the eschatological timeline that any of us realize.

Humanism has encroached into governments worldwide since the advent of the Humanist Manifesto 2 in 1973. If you read it (look at my old posts, I have one whole post on it and how it is Magog's constitution) you can see where so much of the UN's treaties come from. Humanists think religious people in general and Christians in particular are literally insane. The HM2 as much as states so.

Here is one paragraph from the Preface to the document:

"As in 1933, humanists still believe that traditional theism, especially faith in the prayer-hearing God, assumed to live and care for persons, to hear and understand their prayers, and to be able to do something about them, is an unproved and outmoded faith. Salvationism, based on mere affirmation, still appears as harmful diverting people with false hopes of heaven hereafter. Reasonable minds look to other means for survival." And that is just one paragraph of one portion.

Humanists think we're nuts. If they can get a mental health law passed in the UN or World Court, we could all be put in the nuthouse for believing. If you think that possibility is far-fetched, think again. It was a very common tactic of the KGB to have believers placed into mental asylums.

Humanism has been around since the fall. Just what do you think Babylon was?

Just because you've been screaming about full pre-terism doesn't mean its true.

I don't think you were addressing me here Matthitjah, but I just wanted to say that I don't believe the preterist view of prophecy.

I don't see how you got preterist from BB's post either. I think the humanist view will have an even greater impact on the church in the near future.

satan is still telling mankind that they can be as gods & now they have the technology to 'help' themselves toward that goal. When the church refuses to go along with the agenda of being 'progressed' to the next level of 'evolution' we will become outlaws to them. As Bold Believer said, they already see us as crazy to believe traditional theism.

It appears that BB does believe that the antichrist has already appeared in the form of Nero.

Meanwhile, what's any different about the persecution from humanists today than it was when Paul was addressing it prior? Humanism has been around since the fall was my point.

[Matthitjah]

In context;

2Th 1:6

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

2Th 1:7

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Paul is writing this second letter to the Thessalonians to comfort them as they are in tribulation for their witness.

He is talking about the second coming of the Lord as the rest that these folks seek.

He goes on to say that those tribulators will be punished.

Furthermore;

2Th 2:1

¶ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

He is now going to speak to the false full pre-terism that is provoking these Saints. he is going to speak about this second coming and the gathering of the Saint's unto Christ.

2Th 2:2

That you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, that the day of the Lord is at hand.

It appears that these Saints at Thessalonica were troubled by a lie and were afarid that the Lord had already come. It was a Gnostic heresy that Paul was confronting. He was claiming Apostolic authority over what they had heard. You will note that those speaking hadn't spoken under this authority. There was no word nor a letter from them, Paul and the Apostles. They weren't preaching it either.

2Th 2:3

¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

That day would not come until there was a complete apostasy from the Faith. The son of perdition spoken of also applied to Judas. The same word was used for Judas.

2Th 2:5

Do you not remember, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Paul had told them before and was now once again refuting this heresy. It was refuted many times.

It's still being refuted today.

2Th 2:6

And now you know what restrains that he might be revealed in his time.

And now you know what restrains.What restrains is the Truth of the Word and Apostolic authority.

2Th 2:7

For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now restrains will do so, until he be taken out of the way.

Iniquity was already at work, He who restarins, Christ and His Word, will continue to do so, until the coming of the Lord, at which time the son of perdition will be taken out of the way.

2Th 2:8

And then shall that Wicked One be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

He will be revealed at the coming of the Lord, how will the Lord rid us of Him and make Him evident? With the Spirit of His mouth, His Word and the Apostolic authority which was already being apostasized by the very Gonstic heresy that Paul was refuting and had been refuting. The brightness of the Lords coming will illuminate the desperate apostasy and darkness.

2Th 2:9

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Even the anti-christ. The embodiment of this apostasy.

What is Paul talking about?

2Th 2:15

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which you have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

That we hold fast to what he and the other Apostles were teaching and preaching about. That we not soon be shaken by tribulation or even false Gnostic heresies.

Whether Paul had told them personally or through an Epistle they should acknowledge Apostolic authority.

You see Diotrephes loves to be first and he puts out those who seek after Apostolic authority and hold fast to traditions and Epistles whether written or by Word.

Ditrephes is a bad dude. He's raising his head steadily in today's church and we will soon see the full embodiment of his spirit. He puts off Apostolic authority and loves to be first. You can read about him in 3John.

Peace,

Dave

Friend...Gnosticism was not even on the scene yet. Paul died in 67 at Nero's hand. John doesn't even mention Gnostic antichrists until about 95 or so.

The roots of Gnosticism were already at work in Pauls day. He was addressing it here in Thessalonica. Although it did not fully develop as a Religious practice until the second century it was alive and well as satan had already begun to attack the Church. Even in its infancy. Paul spoke of this "Mystery of Iniquity" at work even in this letter. It wasn't explicitely Gnosticism as much as it was a departing from Apostolic Authority and an Apostasy from the Word. aul was addressing this particular heresy though and developing the larger picture which was that folks weren't adhereing to what had already been preached in Word in person and in Epistle.

Gnosticism consisted of a strange synthesis of Jewish Apocolypticism, Platonism, paganism, and early Christianity. As you can clearly see from the text. Paul was addressing a strain of early Apocolypticism that was stating that the Lord had already come. This is why the Thessalonicans were disturbed.

Meanwhile, you haven't addressed how humanism is any more particularly troubling today, or in Pauls day, than it was back in Babylon.

[goldust59]

ok Goldust, here it is!

http://www.fivedoves...2010/jim730.htm

There are two articles here that you may find interesting.

Thanks joi.

Did find them interesting-Especially what was said about the genetic manipulation & how that would sweep through the earth when the end time tribulation begins. Transhumanism has such a huge following already & the general public doesn't have a clue, even though it's been going on for years.( Wasn't long ago I found out myself.) The transhumanists are having their first ever "transhumanist conference" this weekend (Dec 3-4, 2011) in Hong Kong.

... And, about the abuse of children by the occult. That is the most evil thing I have ever looked into!

Odd that this was about the Bride being the restrainer-- I was thinking something similar to that a couple weeks ago, but I didn't take time to look into what I was thinking on. Guess I better make time to be still before the Lord on this matter & see what He 's trying to show me about it.

I've been screaming at the top of my lungs about the Humanist Manifesto and humanism being Magog ever since I came here, but it hasn't done much good because so many are steeped in premillennialism and pre-tribulationism. Satan-Gog is the string puller of his puppet Magog. You can call it transhumanism or humanism or one-worldism but God calls it Magog, so I call it Magogism. It's a case of a rose by any other name. William Bowen's book Globalism: America's demise and Jay Adams' book The Time Is At Hand both played a big part in my realizing that we are much further along the eschatological timeline that any of us realize.

Humanism has encroached into governments worldwide since the advent of the Humanist Manifesto 2 in 1973. If you read it (look at my old posts, I have one whole post on it and how it is Magog's constitution) you can see where so much of the UN's treaties come from. Humanists think religious people in general and Christians in particular are literally insane. The HM2 as much as states so.

Here is one paragraph from the Preface to the document:

"As in 1933, humanists still believe that traditional theism, especially faith in the prayer-hearing God, assumed to live and care for persons, to hear and understand their prayers, and to be able to do something about them, is an unproved and outmoded faith. Salvationism, based on mere affirmation, still appears as harmful diverting people with false hopes of heaven hereafter. Reasonable minds look to other means for survival." And that is just one paragraph of one portion.

Humanists think we're nuts. If they can get a mental health law passed in the UN or World Court, we could all be put in the nuthouse for believing. If you think that possibility is far-fetched, think again. It was a very common tactic of the KGB to have believers placed into mental asylums.

Humanism has been around since the fall. Just what do you think Babylon was?

Just because you've been screaming about full pre-terism doesn't mean its true.

I don't think you were addressing me here Matthitjah, but I just wanted to say that I don't believe the preterist view of prophecy.

I don't see how you got preterist from BB's post either. I think the humanist view will have an even greater impact on the church in the near future.

satan is still telling mankind that they can be as gods & now they have the technology to 'help' themselves toward that goal. When the church refuses to go along with the agenda of being 'progressed' to the next level of 'evolution' we will become outlaws to them. As Bold Believer said, they already see us as crazy to believe traditional theism.

It appears that BB does believe that the antichrist has already appeared in the form of Nero.

Meanwhile, what's any different about the persecution from humanists today than it was when Paul was addressing it prior? Humanism has been around since the fall was my point.

K, I just didn't see it in that post.

I know humanism has been around since the fall, but we are in a time that technology has so advanced that they are actively researching ways to enhance the human body & make it 'better'. As I stated in the previous post, when we refuse to 'get with the program', they will persecute us even more, since they will see us as trying to hold them back from 'evolving to the next plane of existence'. I been reading up on some of their ideas & they are a scary bunch! Google transhumanism, post human, & H+, to find out what their plans are. Christians can't go along with that & we will be looked down on even more because of it.

[Matthitjah]

ok Goldust, here it is!

http://www.fivedoves...2010/jim730.htm

There are two articles here that you may find interesting.

Thanks joi.

Did find them interesting-Especially what was said about the genetic manipulation & how that would sweep through the earth when the end time tribulation begins. Transhumanism has such a huge following already & the general public doesn't have a clue, even though it's been going on for years.( Wasn't long ago I found out myself.) The transhumanists are having their first ever "transhumanist conference" this weekend (Dec 3-4, 2011) in Hong Kong.

... And, about the abuse of children by the occult. That is the most evil thing I have ever looked into!

Odd that this was about the Bride being the restrainer-- I was thinking something similar to that a couple weeks ago, but I didn't take time to look into what I was thinking on. Guess I better make time to be still before the Lord on this matter & see what He 's trying to show me about it.

I've been screaming at the top of my lungs about the Humanist Manifesto and humanism being Magog ever since I came here, but it hasn't done much good because so many are steeped in premillennialism and pre-tribulationism. Satan-Gog is the string puller of his puppet Magog. You can call it transhumanism or humanism or one-worldism but God calls it Magog, so I call it Magogism. It's a case of a rose by any other name. William Bowen's book Globalism: America's demise and Jay Adams' book The Time Is At Hand both played a big part in my realizing that we are much further along the eschatological timeline that any of us realize.

Humanism has encroached into governments worldwide since the advent of the Humanist Manifesto 2 in 1973. If you read it (look at my old posts, I have one whole post on it and how it is Magog's constitution) you can see where so much of the UN's treaties come from. Humanists think religious people in general and Christians in particular are literally insane. The HM2 as much as states so.

Here is one paragraph from the Preface to the document:

"As in 1933, humanists still believe that traditional theism, especially faith in the prayer-hearing God, assumed to live and care for persons, to hear and understand their prayers, and to be able to do something about them, is an unproved and outmoded faith. Salvationism, based on mere affirmation, still appears as harmful diverting people with false hopes of heaven hereafter. Reasonable minds look to other means for survival." And that is just one paragraph of one portion.

Humanists think we're nuts. If they can get a mental health law passed in the UN or World Court, we could all be put in the nuthouse for believing. If you think that possibility is far-fetched, think again. It was a very common tactic of the KGB to have believers placed into mental asylums.

Humanism has been around since the fall. Just what do you think Babylon was?

Just because you've been screaming about full pre-terism doesn't mean its true.

I don't think you were addressing me here Matthitjah, but I just wanted to say that I don't believe the preterist view of prophecy.

I don't see how you got preterist from BB's post either. I think the humanist view will have an even greater impact on the church in the near future.

satan is still telling mankind that they can be as gods & now they have the technology to 'help' themselves toward that goal. When the church refuses to go along with the agenda of being 'progressed' to the next level of 'evolution' we will become outlaws to them. As Bold Believer said, they already see us as crazy to believe traditional theism.

It appears that BB does believe that the antichrist has already appeared in the form of Nero.

Meanwhile, what's any different about the persecution from humanists today than it was when Paul was addressing it prior? Humanism has been around since the fall was my point.

K, I just didn't see it in that post.

I know humanism has been around since the fall, but we are in a time that technology has so advanced that they are actively researching ways to enhance the human body & make it 'better'. As I stated in the previous post, when we refuse to 'get with the program', they will persecute us even more, since they will see us as trying to hold them back from 'evolving to the next plane of existence'. I been reading up on some of their ideas & they are a scary bunch! Google transhumanism, post human, & H+, to find out what their plans are. Christians can't go along with that & we will be looked down on even more because of it.

We haven't been with the program for centuries now. There's nothing new under the sun. I don't believe in angel human hybrids and I don't believe that this is what this scripture is talking about, transhumanism. I don't need to Google it, the Word is clear. It's no different than what the Nazi's were doing and it isn't surprising. However, it is off focus in context.

You will have to show that contextually.

The larger problem, in context, is that the Church was believing a lie that had no Apostolic Authority and they were troubled by it. Paul was addressing this issue and he was letting the people of Thessalonica know that they shouldn't be worried or troubled about the Lords coming or even the revealing of the lawless one. That they should in fact hold fast to what they had been told and that thosee who were troubling them would be dealt with at the coming of the Lord who would reveal the lawless one and deal with those were spreading these heresies and denying Apostolic Authority. Meanwhile, these Thessalonicans should be pressing forward with the work of the Lord. Not being concerned about the tribulations of the world.

[goldust59]

ok Goldust, here it is!

http://www.fivedoves...2010/jim730.htm

There are two articles here that you may find interesting.

Thanks joi.

Did find them interesting-Especially what was said about the genetic manipulation & how that would sweep through the earth when the end time tribulation begins. Transhumanism has such a huge following already & the general public doesn't have a clue, even though it's been going on for years.( Wasn't long ago I found out myself.) The transhumanists are having their first ever "transhumanist conference" this weekend (Dec 3-4, 2011) in Hong Kong.

... And, about the abuse of children by the occult. That is the most evil thing I have ever looked into!

Odd that this was about the Bride being the restrainer-- I was thinking something similar to that a couple weeks ago, but I didn't take time to look into what I was thinking on. Guess I better make time to be still before the Lord on this matter & see what He 's trying to show me about it.

I've been screaming at the top of my lungs about the Humanist Manifesto and humanism being Magog ever since I came here, but it hasn't done much good because so many are steeped in premillennialism and pre-tribulationism. Satan-Gog is the string puller of his puppet Magog. You can call it transhumanism or humanism or one-worldism but God calls it Magog, so I call it Magogism. It's a case of a rose by any other name. William Bowen's book Globalism: America's demise and Jay Adams' book The Time Is At Hand both played a big part in my realizing that we are much further along the eschatological timeline that any of us realize.

Humanism has encroached into governments worldwide since the advent of the Humanist Manifesto 2 in 1973. If you read it (look at my old posts, I have one whole post on it and how it is Magog's constitution) you can see where so much of the UN's treaties come from. Humanists think religious people in general and Christians in particular are literally insane. The HM2 as much as states so.

Here is one paragraph from the Preface to the document:

"As in 1933, humanists still believe that traditional theism, especially faith in the prayer-hearing God, assumed to live and care for persons, to hear and understand their prayers, and to be able to do something about them, is an unproved and outmoded faith. Salvationism, based on mere affirmation, still appears as harmful diverting people with false hopes of heaven hereafter. Reasonable minds look to other means for survival." And that is just one paragraph of one portion.

Humanists think we're nuts. If they can get a mental health law passed in the UN or World Court, we could all be put in the nuthouse for believing. If you think that possibility is far-fetched, think again. It was a very common tactic of the KGB to have believers placed into mental asylums.

Humanism has been around since the fall. Just what do you think Babylon was?

Just because you've been screaming about full pre-terism doesn't mean its true.

I don't think you were addressing me here Matthitjah, but I just wanted to say that I don't believe the preterist view of prophecy.

I don't see how you got preterist from BB's post either. I think the humanist view will have an even greater impact on the church in the near future.

satan is still telling mankind that they can be as gods & now they have the technology to 'help' themselves toward that goal. When the church refuses to go along with the agenda of being 'progressed' to the next level of 'evolution' we will become outlaws to them. As Bold Believer said, they already see us as crazy to believe traditional theism.

It appears that BB does believe that the antichrist has already appeared in the form of Nero.

Meanwhile, what's any different about the persecution from humanists today than it was when Paul was addressing it prior? Humanism has been around since the fall was my point.

K, I just didn't see it in that post.

I know humanism has been around since the fall, but we are in a time that technology has so advanced that they are actively researching ways to enhance the human body & make it 'better'. As I stated in the previous post, when we refuse to 'get with the program', they will persecute us even more, since they will see us as trying to hold them back from 'evolving to the next plane of existence'. I been reading up on some of their ideas & they are a scary bunch! Google transhumanism, post human, & H+, to find out what their plans are. Christians can't go along with that & we will be looked down on even more because of it.

We haven't been with the program for centuries now. There's nothing new under the sun. I don't believe in angel human hybrids and I don't believe that this is what this scripture is talking about, transhumanism. I don't need to Google it, the Word is clear. It's no different than what the Nazi's were doing and it isn't surprising. However, it is off focus in context.

You will have to show that contextually.

The larger problem, in context, is that the Church was believing a lie that had no Apostolic Authority and they were troubled by it. Paul was addressing this issue and he was letting the people of Thessalonica know that they shouldn't be worried or troubled about the Lords coming or even the revealing of the lawless one. That they should in fact hold fast to what they had been told and that thosee who were troubling them would be dealt with at the coming of the Lord who would reveal the lawless one and deal with those were spreading these heresies and denying Apostolic Authority. Meanwhile, these Thessalonicans should be pressing forward with the work of the Lord. Not being concerned about the tribulations of the world.

Who said anything about angel human hybrids here?

It is the same that the Nazi's were doing--now picture that on a world wide scale. Who are they going to be trying to eliminate this time?

And yes, we should also be pressing forward with the work of the Lord, but that doesn't mean we need to be ignorant of what is going on around us. The Lord told us we would have tribulation in this world. The Lord told us what to watch for but He didn't go into detail on how those things would play out.