Guest Butero Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 It is unfortunate that our understandings are so frayed that issues cannot be properly addressed! What we wear is of the same consideration as homosexuality???? A fibered morality initiated in the beginning of our very created being is substanced in life and not law! A Love that comes down from God 'IS' Christ Jesus and His morality is evident everywhere He went and taught! Note that at His mock trial not one moral issue was brought against Him because of this evident truth! Now Christ in me the hope of glory means what? Col 1:27-29 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. 29 To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily. NKJV So the man who practices immorality must be warned that it is not Christ working that in them! Love, Steven What you are going to have to realize is that no amount of arguing or bickering will change the opinion of everyone to your point of view. The point I was making is that law is law. If you are going to take the position that it is wrong to make someone live the way we think they should live, that has to extend to everything. Everyone has their own way of interpreting scripture. One person may think clothing issues don't matter, and another may think these things do matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Clay Posted December 28, 2011 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 60 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/29/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted December 28, 2011 <snip> When I first joined WB, I got angry with the poor deluded people that believed in eternal security. Over time, I realized that there are various ways two people can read the same scriptures and come to differen't conclusions. If you get mad over disagreements, it won't do any good. They won't change their mind, and you probably won't change your mind. You will get along with others better if you just stand for what you believe in, and accept the fact others won't always agree. Ultimately we all have to stand before God at the judgement. Jesus will ultimately decide our fate. Some who don't believe in eternal security live like the devil. Some who believe in eternal security do that which is right in the sight of God. If you believe eternal security is a lie, don't back down, but don't let it anger you that others think you are wrong. It won't do you or anyone else any good. Just can't help taking that shot, huh big B? How was I taking a shot at anyone? I said that was my attitude when I first joined WB, not today. I am saying that I understand your position better than I did, even if I don't hold exactly the same position. How - by not including words to the effect of, "but I have since realized how selfish, judgmental, and wrong I was to see them that way" you failed to remove the pronouncement of delusion on the poor people who believe differently than you. Without the pronouncement revoked, it is a personal shot. Though I am hopeful that it was just an oversight and not your intent. ~clay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted December 28, 2011 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,387 Content Per Day: 8.00 Reputation: 21,563 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted December 28, 2011 It is unfortunate that our understandings are so frayed that issues cannot be properly addressed! What we wear is of the same consideration as homosexuality???? A fibered morality initiated in the beginning of our very created being is substanced in life and not law! A Love that comes down from God 'IS' Christ Jesus and His morality is evident everywhere He went and taught! Note that at His mock trial not one moral issue was brought against Him because of this evident truth! Now Christ in me the hope of glory means what? Col 1:27-29 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. 29 To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily. NKJV So the man who practices immorality must be warned that it is not Christ working that in them! Love, Steven What you are going to have to realize is that no amount of arguing or bickering will change the opinion of everyone to your point of view. The point I was making is that law is law. If you are going to take the position that it is wrong to make someone live the way we think they should live, that has to extend to everything. Everyone has their own way of interpreting scripture. One person may think clothing issues don't matter, and another may think these things do matter. Rational is derived from that of reasoning and so to take the course as you have laid down I would have to agree with you the east African elephant has much in common with the banana in the Philippines.... so be careful in this for to take offense or to disagree would be to oppose your own logic at this point... Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 <snip> When I first joined WB, I got angry with the poor deluded people that believed in eternal security. Over time, I realized that there are various ways two people can read the same scriptures and come to differen't conclusions. If you get mad over disagreements, it won't do any good. They won't change their mind, and you probably won't change your mind. You will get along with others better if you just stand for what you believe in, and accept the fact others won't always agree. Ultimately we all have to stand before God at the judgement. Jesus will ultimately decide our fate. Some who don't believe in eternal security live like the devil. Some who believe in eternal security do that which is right in the sight of God. If you believe eternal security is a lie, don't back down, but don't let it anger you that others think you are wrong. It won't do you or anyone else any good. Just can't help taking that shot, huh big B? How was I taking a shot at anyone? I said that was my attitude when I first joined WB, not today. I am saying that I understand your position better than I did, even if I don't hold exactly the same position. How - by not including words to the effect of, "but I have since realized how selfish, judgmental, and wrong I was to see them that way" you failed to remove the pronouncement of delusion on the poor people who believe differently than you. Without the pronouncement revoked, it is a personal shot. Though I am hopeful that it was just an oversight and not your intent. ~clay I assure you, it was not a shot. I have modified my view since then. What I am saying is that I understand that you have your reasons for what you believe, and I have my reasons for what I believe. I don't think that my opinion was selfish? Judgmental perhaps, but no more than others defending OSAS. I am still not a believer in OSAS, so I still think it is wrong, but I don't see people on the other side of the isle as stupid or lacking knowledge of the Bible. I realized that those people have spent time in the Word and just interpret things differen't from me. Anyway, I don't see the OSAS crowd as "poor, deluded people." I can't be anymore plain than that, and I am sorry you took me wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 It is unfortunate that our understandings are so frayed that issues cannot be properly addressed! What we wear is of the same consideration as homosexuality???? A fibered morality initiated in the beginning of our very created being is substanced in life and not law! A Love that comes down from God 'IS' Christ Jesus and His morality is evident everywhere He went and taught! Note that at His mock trial not one moral issue was brought against Him because of this evident truth! Now Christ in me the hope of glory means what? Col 1:27-29 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. 29 To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily. NKJV So the man who practices immorality must be warned that it is not Christ working that in them! Love, Steven What you are going to have to realize is that no amount of arguing or bickering will change the opinion of everyone to your point of view. The point I was making is that law is law. If you are going to take the position that it is wrong to make someone live the way we think they should live, that has to extend to everything. Everyone has their own way of interpreting scripture. One person may think clothing issues don't matter, and another may think these things do matter. Rational is derived from that of reasoning and so to take the course as you have laid down I would have to agree with you the east African elephant has much in common with the banana in the Philipeans.... so be careful in this for to take offense or to disagree would be to oppose your own logic at this point... Love, Steven That is an absurd analogy, but since you want to be silly about this, let me point out something to you. I have had the OSAS crowd argue over and over that sin is sin. One sin is as bad as another they tell us. For that reason, we all need a Savior. Now you are arguing that one sin is not as bad as another. There are differen't levels of sin. If that is your position, so be it, but it is not what most have been arguing in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Clay Posted December 28, 2011 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 60 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/29/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted December 28, 2011 You misunderstood what I was doing Shiloh. I was showing how you can take multiple scriptures to defend Calvainism, OSAS and the idea you can lose your salvation, depending on how you interpret things. My view is that God created us with free will, but knowing fully what we would choose to do. He knew our beginning and our ending. In other words, if he creates one man, Moses, and knows he will be a God fearing man that will lead Israel out of bondage, and he also creates Pharoah, knowing he will oppose Moses, even if they technically had free will, they really didn't, because the outcome was known at the time of their creation. As for salvation, I believe God knew if you would be saved or lost before you were created in the womb. Just as God formed Jeremiah in the womb, knowing he would be his prophet, he also formed Judas Iscariot in the womb, knowing he would betray Jesus. He made them the way they were, as a potter forms the clay. Only God know our final outcome, therefore, there is no such thing as absolute security. If you turn and fall away at the end, you really didn't belong to Jesus to begin with, though you may have thought you did. And that is the key, is it not Butero? That God knows the beginning from the end. He knows who will and who will not be saved (born again, born from above, translated into the kingdom of His dear Son, have their name written in the Book of Life, be sealed with His Spirit, become the dwelling place of God). And He chooses to be active in the lives of those that, in His foreknowledge, He knows will become his adopted children; so that He causes them to be conformed to the image of His Son in order that Jesus would be the firstborn among many brethren. This is predestination based on foreknowledge. Isn't it true that my name does not repeatedly go in and out of the Book of Life as I might willfully sin? Oops, I wasn't completely honest on my taxes and I chose not to report that money I made when I painted the neighbor's house. Whoops, there goes my name! Or when I let my emotions get the better of me and I willfully chose to brake quickly to get the tailgater behind me off my *ss in traffic. There went my name again ... ! Or when I willfully drove 57 miles per hour when I knew darn well that the legal speed limit was 55? Boy, it's hard to keep my name in this book! This leads to a performance-based salvation, not faith-based. It's religion, not relationship. And whether we are like Shiloh357 who doesn't believe that God actually makes vessels for honor and dishonor, or like you who believes that God is sovereign and does what He purposes with the clay, the end result is still the same. He knows where they will end up and those that He elects, He assures they end up exactly where His purpose intends them to. Like Jonah, if He has called us to preach at Nineveh, we will preach. How we get there is up to us (by boat or by fish), but the destination of the elect is fixed ahead of time. It's not that we "can't" change it with our free will, it is just that He has already seen the end and we "won't" change it with our free will. ~clay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted December 28, 2011 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,387 Content Per Day: 8.00 Reputation: 21,563 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted December 28, 2011 No one is talking about degrees of sin! That also is not Biblical! James 2:10 Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 This is actually a separate issue from that of eternal security, but it is an important one. You are picking and choosing the kind of things you don't like ministers to preach on. No, I was using them only as examples. I did not make an exhuastive list, but that list is typical of the type of nonsense that religious people focus on. If we are not to bind people with rules and tell them they should be obedient to them, you can't tell someone not to steal, kill, bear false witness, anything, because those are rules that bind people. No, I was talking about man-made rules where a man tells his wife that she will be "Jezebel" to him if she wears pants. I am talking about people trying to intimidate and manipulate others into submission by threatening them with going to hell if they wear too much make up or listen to secular music. Just because you don't agree with certain things people say are wrong, that doesn't mean you are right. That misses the point. If you thinking a certain thing is wrong or inappropriate and I don't, I can live with that. The problem I have is with people tying salvation to man-made, external rules. Now if you are going to be consistent and say we aren't bound to follow any of God's laws, including those I just mentioned, so be it. I don't agree, but at least I would say you are consistent. I am perfectly consistent. I am talking about man-made rules, not the commandments of God. I had made that clear before, but you missed that part, I guess. Those who don't believe we should dress a certain way, or listen to secular music, or any other thing you may want to put on a list, believe that based on scripture. so what??? There are all kinds of false doctrine that is "based" on Scripture. The most successful cults in the world base their false doctrines on the Bible. Just because something is "based" on Scripture, doesn't mean that it is the product of a proper handlig of Scripture. You may not agree with their interpretation, but they have as much right to their view as you do to yours. I didn't say they didn't have a right to it. You have the right to believe nonsense if that is what you choose, even if that nonense is based on a sloppy handling of Scripture. The homosexuals will even claim that we are not under the law, so they are just as saved as those who are straight. If there are no standards, and that is your sincere belief, I hope you found a church to attend that never preaches on sin, because sin is the transgression of the law according to 1 John. but that makes my point. The Homsexuals make their claims based on the Bible. So to argue that something is right simply because it is "based" on Scripture doesn't really offer a cogent argument. I am not saying there are no standards. I am saying people should not be tying salvation to external rules and regulations invented by men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Clay Posted December 29, 2011 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 60 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/29/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted December 29, 2011 Anyway, I don't see the OSAS crowd as "poor, deluded people." I can't be anymore plain than that, and I am sorry you took me wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 .... What you are going to have to realize is that no amount of arguing or bickering will change the opinion of everyone to your point of view. The point I was making is that law is law. If you are going to take the position that it is wrong to make someone live the way we think they should live, that has to extend to everything. Everyone has their own way of interpreting scripture. One person may think clothing issues don't matter, and another may think these things do matter.... Dear Brother, Have You Ever Got That Right (And What Is The Proper Apparel For A Beheading.... Or A Crucification?) For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Romans 3:3-4 For Jesus Christ Will Either Save Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. John 8:34 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. John 8:36 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47 And Sanctify A Fellow Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Hebrews 13:12 Or He Won't And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. Acts 15:8-11 See And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. John 17:13-26 Thank You Dear Brother For The Cut In The Line And Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING Love, Your Brother Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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