~candice~ Posted February 6, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 955 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 11,318 Content Per Day: 1.89 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 33 Joined: 12/16/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 6, 2012 Well, please excuse me as i try to say something, and i admit i usually do not choose the best way to word what i mean, but here is my attempt, lol. I have a little trouble where several places i read someone say something about if you die in sin, you were never saved in the first place. Can even the most Spirit filled person you know, make it through one day without sinning? Or as I have heard preached several times, how many can go even 5 minutes without any sin? What about if you, yourself knows for sure you have salvation, and say you get angry or hold some grudge against someone(seems a little too common for Christians to hold a grudge) and you get into car accident and die before you can set things right? I am trying to see the argument that we can somehow hang on to or lose our salvation through what we do or do not do, but i can not see how we can take any credit for what Jesus has done once and for all. You won't find that concept anywhere in the bible. Sin does not undo our salvation. Sin merely damaged the depth of the relationship we have with God, it doesn't destroy the relationship itself. All of our sin has been forgiven. We see this clearly in the book of 1 John. Speaking to Christians, sinning after salvation, we are reminded of our Advocate the Lord Jesus Christ. I don't believe there is a single passage that says sin destroys your salvation, but there are plenty of verses encouraging you not to sin. What is of concern is when you see a lifestyle of sin... that is when you begin to question whether salvation happened in the first place. 1 John should clear this up for you, especially Chapters 1 and 2. God bless Candice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Please Shiloh give me your defense of your OSAS doctrine and also please give me your interpretation on this commentary by truthinscripture.com , i would really appreciate it. I am not defending OSAS. I believe in Eternal Security and they are two completely different points of view. Unfortunately, people like you refuse to take the time to understand the difference. You just want to lump the two views together as if they were the same thing, and as I discussed above, they are not. Hebrews 10:36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. That verse is not talking about salvation. Salvation is not a reward. Salvation is not the result of endurance. Salvaton is a gift of God's grace that is given freely. We do not earn or "win" salvation. Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. The promise of eternal life can be received right now when you believe in Jesus with a pure heart. To actually attain the promise we must do the will of God and endure to the very end to be saved. The will of God is described as listening to God’s son and being purified of all sin. Unless we overcome sin in our lives, Jesus will indeed erase our names from the Book of Life and we will not enter the Kingdom of God. That is not what Jesus is saying. The verse says that the person who OVERCOMES shall not have their name erased. The person who overcomes is the person who believes and trusts in Jesus Christ (I John 5:4-5). The word for "will not" is a double negative that means "I will not, no, never..." meaning that the person who receives Jesus will NEVER have his name removed from the Lamb's book of life. It is not a warning about losing salvation. It is an assurance that the Christian will NEVER have His Name removed from the book of life. SEcondly the author makes another glaring theological error. He draws a false dichotomy between receiving salvation and obtaining salvation. There is no such teaching in Scripture. The Bible says I can KNOW TODAY that HAVE salvation: He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1Jn 5:10-13) In addition the believer has the Holy Spirit within himself testifying that he is a child of God. Ephesians 1;14 teaches that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance. The notion that obtain salvation at a later time AFTER we receive it is unbiblical. Eternal life is NOW it is present tense and the authentic beleiver has eternal life today as a personal possession. This "commentary" is a theological trainwreck. I don't have the time to respond to all of it at this moment, as it is quite long, but will revisit today, as I have opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 There are many verses that speak to the need to persevere. I simply want us to grasp the seriousness of the call to perseverance in faith. No one disputes that we need to persevere to endure to live the Christian life. Where we disagree is to the motive for perseverance. My willingness to endure testing, trials and tribulation stems from the grace of God afforded to me through Christ Jesus. I don't persevere to GET saved. I persevere because I AM saved and that perseverance of the fruit of salvation. Your entire approach is flawed because you are trying work for what can only be received as a free gift. Secondly, this approach is flawed because earlier in the commentary, salvation is said to be received but not obtained. The author treats salvation as something that is obtained at the end of life, AFTER one has endured. In effect, one has to be worthy of salvation. Salvation is incorrectly viewed by this author as something to be "deserved." and that is a false gospel. How does one persevere in salvation if one has not obtained it in the first place? If salvation has not been obtained, then how can one "lose" what one does not yet have??? The logic of the author is weak and self-contradictory. I believe the license for immorality that Jude speaks about, is exactly what is being taught in many churches today. Yet the largest and noteworty public sexual scandals ever witnessed in this day and age were committed by preachers who did not hold to a view of Eternal Security. Neither Jim Bakkar or Jimmy Swaggert or a host of other big name preachers who have been caught in scandals believed in Eternal Security. Oral Roberts, one the biggest snake oil salesmen in the world, did not believe in Eternal Security. Paul and Jan Crouch of TBN do not believe in Eternal Security either. So believing in Eternal Security has nothing to do with the scandals or other false teachings that have rocked the Christian world over the years. I have many friends who were raised in pentacostal anti-Eternal Security churches who boozed it up, fornicated, told dirty jokes, lied, etc. Fear of losing salvation was NOT an impediment to living in sin for them. Nowhere does God say his grace is unconditional, in fact there are many warnings in the bible speaking to forfeiting grace, falling away, backsliding, not being deceived, remaining in him, and enduring to the end to be saved. The problem is that Eternal Security does not hold to an uncoditional view of grace. Eternal Security is reserved for the authentic follower of Jesus. It is predicated on the notion that one is a authentic follower of Jesus and lives to serve the Lord. They are not looking for a way to sin. Eternal Security (as opposed to OSAS) teaches that the authentic believer is secure in that God is not going to change His mind and rescind His promises of salvation. It does not teach that we are secure even if we choose to live in sin. If one can live in sin and enjoy it, their profession of faith is not genuine. OSAS is not a genuine doctrine. In fact, you won't find it even discussed in any major work of Theology. OSAS was a term created by laymen and it has been a perversoin of Eternal Security. It has been used to paint Eternal Security as a license to sin, when in fact Eternal Security only pertains to authentic believers who are living sober Godly lives in view of the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. But even clearer than this is the fact that Grace gives us the desire and the ability to obey God. Yep, in Titus 2:11-14. Grace is not a license to sin. It is the expectation of holy living. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~candice~ Posted February 6, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 955 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 11,318 Content Per Day: 1.89 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 33 Joined: 12/16/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 6, 2012 What I am getting from Butero, and it is a point I haven't seen adequately addressed, is that ES hinges on the fact that a genuine Christian has been transformed and will continue to live for God. Under this understanding of ES, where is the security for backsliders? I agree, in part, that you can hardly call it security if at some future point in time, you might backslide, indicating you were actually never born again. ES, OSAS, anti-OSAS, whatever.... this issue of people of faith living for a time in the world needs to be addressed and I don't think it has been addressed adequately by either side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 What I am getting from Butero, and it is a point I haven't seen adequately addressed, is that ES hinges on the fact that a genuine Christian has been transformed and will continue to live for God. Under this understanding of ES, where is the security for backsliders? I agree, in part, that you can hardly call it security if at some future point in time, you might backslide, indicating you were actually never born again. ES, OSAS, anti-OSAS, whatever.... this issue of people of faith living for a time in the world needs to be addressed and I don't think it has been addressed adequately by either side. Christians fail for various reasons. I have known Christians who rebel in anger or discouragement for a season. Something happened, perhaps they lost a child or their spouse up and decided to leave them for another person. Christians are not immune to intensely traumatic situations that cause them leave the church and live for themselves as they are angry with God. They did not stop believing. But their faith was shaken and depending on where they are in their walk with the Lord, they may or may not be emotionally or psycholocially able to deal with it. I think God understands. Their rebellion is still wrong, and they still need to repent, but it is not motivated from a desire to just thow their faith out of the window because they would rather fornicate. But there are people who profess Christ, but the allure of sin is more attractive and they are able to enjoy it. They purposely choose a lifestyle of sin over Christ. Or they have for some reason decided to convert to another religion or become an atheist. In that particular case, there is a problem with what was their profession of faith. They were probably never really saved to begin with. No one who is born of God can live in sin and enjoy it. The conviction of the Holy Spirit is just too strong. Backsliding is not a NT teaching. It is used only in connection to ancient Israel in the Old Testament. As an aside, the big problem I see in these debates is that anti-ES passages are presented when those passages are not about salvation at all or at least they are not about getting saved. Passages dealing with persevering, enduring to the end, reaminging faithful, rewards for service, self-disicipline, etc. are offerd to prove that we have to keep working in order to maintain salvation, but what I have discovered is that those passages pertain to Chrisitian living/service and not about how we are saved. Salvation from sin is not even the object the author has in view. So we have a lot of confusion being inserted into the discussion because anti-ES folks don't seem capable of discerning context and line of thought when it comes to how a passage is to be understood. And when passsages about "Salvation" or being "saved" are used, people tend to forget that words like, "salvation" and "saved" are used 5 different ways in the New Testament. The author may not have salvation from sin in mind. Salvation can refer to physical deliverance from danger, judgment and tribulation. It can refer to security, healing, restoration and preseveration. There are physical and spiritual contexts to how the word "salvation" is used and many times the word is used with no reference to being saved from sin. Yet, this fact is not recognized by anti-ES people and they offer up as "proof" that salvation must be earned, verses that are not addressing the issue under discussion. So it really ingenders a lot of confusion when these passagses are used incorrectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~candice~ Posted February 6, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 955 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 11,318 Content Per Day: 1.89 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 33 Joined: 12/16/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 6, 2012 OK... so Christians can sin and fall away for a period, but so can fake "I thought I was saved but wasn't" people. So if a person stumbles, how do they know which of the previous kind of person they were? There would be no way so how is that security from their point of view? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 OK... so Christians can sin and fall away for a period, but so can fake "I thought I was saved but wasn't" people. So if a person stumbles, how do they know which of the previous kind of person they were? There would be no way so how is that security from their point of view? Of course there is a way... How do they kinow which person they were? The conviction of the Holy Spirit is always a good indicator. Authentic Chrisitians will always have to deal with the powerful conviction of the Holy Spirit. Genuine believers know they are children of God because the Holy Spirit Himself testifies within us that we belong to God. (Rom. 8:17). A lack of conviction, no struggle indicates that a person was never truly saved to begin with. They may have had "relgion" but they did not have Christ. There is a type of Christianity that does not have Christ in it. Many people can live in sin and live in religion at the same time and not see any real problem with it. They can go to church, thinking they are getting their slate wiped clean fully expecting to dirty it up again. There is no provision in Scripture for people who seek forgiveness while fully intending to go right back out and engage in the same sinful lifestyle all over again. It is not for someone to know which they are. I know I am saved. I don't have any question about it at all. When I sin, I get convicted and I know when I am convicted. There is no dougt at all in my mind. Those who are just going through the motions know it as well. There are people in my school who claim to be "Christians" but it is clear from their life that they don't really believe a single word of Scripture and they know they are going through the motions, because if they didn't, they would be kicked off of the campus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanL Posted February 7, 2012 Group: Senior Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 77 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 61 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/09/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/20/1958 Share Posted February 7, 2012 1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (emphasis mine) When we are saved is it our flesh that is saved? Or, does the devil attempt to use the flesh that remains to confound and render ineffective those who are saved? (fallen televengelists duly noted) If nothing can snatch us from His hand, and the adversary knows that, isn't his best tactic then to extinguish our light? Ephesians 4: 20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness. Putting on the new man sounds much more like a process than an instantaneous change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 When we are saved is it our flesh that is saved? No. Putting on the new man sounds much more like a process than an instantaneous change. Putting on the new man is a daily process. But it is not the same as the instantaneous transformation that occurs when a person receives Jesus as Savior. The transformation from the kingdom of darkness to the kindom of light is instaneous. Putting on the new man is a continuous way of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanL Posted February 7, 2012 Group: Senior Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 77 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 61 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/09/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/20/1958 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Shiloh, I agree. And, have you ever seen any process in your life (or anyone else's, for that matter) that took place in a straight line? Are there not always peaks and valleys? God sees the book already written. All of eternity is laid out before Him and He knows it all. We're on page 3 somewhere. Well, I am anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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