What a partial preterist believes

[Guest]

.... Luke 21:22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.

Jesus just told the disciples that when they see Jerusalem surrounded by armies they need to get out, the time of its desolation is near. He has equated this with the prophecy of Daniel. He's putting the stamp of God on what is going to take place. What could be more plain?...

Yes

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Luke 21:20-24

Indeed

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Luke 21:25-28

What Could Be More Plain

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:14-27

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Guest shiloh357]

Y'shua was given the throne of His father David at the Ascension. He has received that throne already.

Not so. The throne of David is an earthly throne. It is NEVER used to refer to Jesus' present office which is that of High Priest He will assume his rightful place on David's throne when He returns and establishes His millennial kingdom.

The knowledge of the LORD covers the earth as the waters cover the sea now. There are few places one can't go where Y'shua has never been heard of.

As always, you are given over to exaggerations and overstatements.

[Bold Believer]

Y'shua was given the throne of His father David at the Ascension. He has received that throne already.

Not so. The throne of David is an earthly throne. It is NEVER used to refer to Jesus' present office which is that of High Priest He will assume his rightful place on David's throne when He returns and establishes His millennial kingdom.

The knowledge of the LORD covers the earth as the waters cover the sea now. There are few places one can't go where Y'shua has never been heard of.

As always, you are given over to exaggerations and overstatements.

The throne of David is not a reference to the throne itself. It means the KINGSHIP. Jesus has been given the Kingship of Israel.

And as usual, you are given over to excessive literalism. It's a problem pre-millennialists seem to have. Scripture interpets Scripture. History confirms Scripture.

[Montana Marv]

If one is to be King of Kings and Lord of Lords, He must have a following. Israel is not following Him at this time.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Guest shiloh357]

The throne of David is not a reference to the throne itself.

Yes it is. In fact it is confirmed by Ezek. 43. The throne of David is NEVER once connected to heaven. Never once. It is always connected with an earthly reign.

It means the KINGSHIP. Jesus has been given the Kingship of Israel.

Yes, but He is not operating in that office at this time. Right now, He is operating as our High Priest.

And as usual, you are given over to excessive literalism.

It is not excessive literalism at all. When the Bible speaks in concrete terms, it expects to be understood that way. Before 1948, almost no one believed that the restoration of Israel to their Land could EVER be seen as "literal." Those who saw it as literal were in the extreme minority. Those scholars who maintained that the church is Israel viewed every prophecy of Israel's return to be a reference to the church or the church age. Yet, just as the prophets said, Israel was reborn despite those who claimed that the restoration of Israel was not to be viewed in a literal way.

So, your camp has a miserable track record for getting it right when you accuse us of "excessive literalism." In our case, it is a matter of taking God at His Word and believing the Bible; something you have chosen not to do.

It's a problem pre-millennialists seem to have. Scripture interpets Scripture. History confirms Scripture

It was those pesky pre-millennialists who got it right about Israel. Seems it is not a problem for us at all and History has confrmed that we were right. You on the other hand have to rely on exaggerations and overstatements and in some cases, downright inaccurate facts in order to make the square pegs of history fit the round holes of your eschatology.

[JohnD]

I still say that partial Preterists are shy of reasons why they do not accept full Preterism other than to apply futurist reasons that refute all forms of Preterism (only they refuse to take them to their logical conclusion) so they can continue to believe God is through with the Jewish people. This is simply a form of antisemitism and ignores the scriptures that teach God is never through with Jews and Israel.

[Bold Believer]

The throne of David is not a reference to the throne itself.

Yes it is. In fact it is confirmed by Ezek. 43. The throne of David is NEVER once connected to heaven. Never once. It is always connected with an earthly reign.

It means the KINGSHIP. Jesus has been given the Kingship of Israel.

Yes, but He is not operating in that office at this time. Right now, He is operating as our High Priest.

And as usual, you are given over to excessive literalism.

It is not excessive literalism at all. When the Bible speaks in concrete terms, it expects to be understood that way. Before 1948, almost no one believed that the restoration of Israel to their Land could EVER be seen as "literal." Those who saw it as literal were in the extreme minority. Those scholars who maintained that the church is Israel viewed every prophecy of Israel's return to be a reference to the church or the church age. Yet, just as the prophets said, Israel was reborn despite those who claimed that the restoration of Israel was not to be viewed in a literal way.

So, your camp has a miserable track record for getting it right when you accuse us of "excessive literalism." In our case, it is a matter of taking God at His Word and believing the Bible; something you have chosen not to do.

It's a problem pre-millennialists seem to have. Scripture interpets Scripture. History confirms Scripture

It was those pesky pre-millennialists who got it right about Israel. Seems it is not a problem for us at all and History has confrmed that we were right. You on the other hand have to rely on exaggerations and overstatements and in some cases, downright inaccurate facts in order to make the square pegs of history fit the round holes of your eschatology.

Jesus is NOT King over all the Earth?

Matthew 28 is a Coronation. Only a King can command the things Jesus does. The word of the Lord was to go forth from Jerusalem. It did. The mountain of the house of the Lord became the chief of the mountains. Jesus declared Himself a King. 'My kingdom is not of this world...' He's saying He has a Kingdom, it just isn't one that comes with observation (i.e.: by sight). The kingdom of God is not food and drink (i.e. literal and physical), but righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Only someone who is born again can have those attributes, and they are some of the things that place them in the Kingdom. Unsaved Jewish people do not have them. They don't yet believe in the King.

Also, not every partial preterist believes that the Church is Israel, or that the restoration of Israel isn't literal. Some do, other's don't.

I don't believe the Second Coming is the event which brings Jews to belief in Christ, and the reason I don't is because of the way Peter describes it in II Peter 3. Jews will come to faith before that.

[Guest shiloh357]

Jesus is NOT King over all the Earth?

Of course He is. I said that He is not operating in that office at this time. Jesus has always been King over all the earth. That did not begin after the resurrection.

Matthew 28 is a Coronation. Only a King can command the things Jesus does. The word of the Lord was to go forth from Jerusalem. It did. The mountain of the house of the Lord became the chief of the mountains. Jesus declared Himself a King. 'My kingdom is not of this world...' He's saying He has a Kingdom, it just isn't one that comes with observation (i.e.: by sight). The kingdom of God is not food and drink (i.e. literal and physical), but righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Only someone who is born again can have those attributes, and they are some of the things that place them in the Kingdom. Unsaved Jewish people do not have them. They don't yet believe in the King.

Blah, blah, blah. You are trying to refute something I never said.

Also, not every partial preterist believes that the Church is Israel, or that the restoration of Israel isn't literal. Some do, other's don't.

The point is that before Israel was reborn, those who claimed that the prophecies should be taken literally were disregarded. In some cases, this was seen to be an over-literalization, but it turned out to be right on the moeny.

I don't believe the Second Coming is the event which brings Jews to belief in Christ, and the reason I don't is because of the way Peter describes it in II Peter 3. Jews will come to faith before that.

And they are coming to faith, slowly but surely. But something is going to happen that will radically change the nation and restore the Kingdom to it according to Ezekiel 36 and 37.

[Bold Believer]

Jesus is NOT King over all the Earth?

Matthew 28 is a Coronation. Only a King can command the things Jesus does. The word of the Lord was to go forth from Jerusalem. It did. The mountain of the house of the Lord became the chief of the mountains. Jesus declared Himself a King. 'My kingdom is not of this world...' He's saying He has a Kingdom, it just isn't one that comes with observation (i.e.: by sight). The kingdom of God is not food and drink (i.e. literal and physical), but righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Only someone who is born again can have those attributes, and they are some of the things that place them in the Kingdom. Unsaved Jewish people do not have them. They don't yet believe in the King.

Also, not every partial preterist believes that the Church is Israel, or that the restoration of Israel isn't literal. Some do, other's don't.

I don't believe the Second Coming is the event which brings Jews to belief in Christ, and the reason I don't is because of the way Peter describes it in II Peter 3. Jews will come to faith before that.

Twist and turn as you may, there is one thing you cannot get around, and that is why you are so disdainful of literal interpretation. Every time you use the word "literal" it drips with malice. Because it is an issue you cannot and will not deal with. Any time we have Prophets, Apostles and even Jesus expounding on scripture, they always interpret it literally, not allegorically. Allegorical interpretation is a great tool for anyone who has a doctrine they want to support but can't through a literal interpretation of the Word. If you toss hermeneutics out the window, you can assign any meaning you want to anything. The RCC has been doing it for 1400 years and preterists do it as well. Jesus Himself gives us the prototype for interpreting scripture, but I will repeat, again, that preterists and amillennialists just suddenly have these rules changing, yet they cannot explain how, when or why they suddenly changed.

Another thing you do is continually interject the term pre-tribulation or pre-millenial into the discussion as if saying that if those two doctrines are wrong, yours has to be right. It is a really poor argument as well as being dishonest. There are a myriad of end-time scenarios that one could chose. One does not have to choose preterism, amillennialism, pre-millennialism or pre-tribulation. No one is forcing you to adopt a pre-trib eschatology or even asking you to look at it. No one is even talking about pre-trib doctrine. You are the one who keeps bringing it up as if you'd like to take anyone who believes in it and burn them at the stake. No one is saying that pre-trib is right, you keep tossing it in there as a red herring. It makes little difference what eschatology any one of us here adopts. The fact is, partial or full preterism and amillennialism are wrong. They cannot be supported without an allegorical and overly-spiritual interpretation of the Bible which we already know by biblical examples is an unacceptable way in which to interpret scripture. No one is badgering you to adopt pre-trib doctrine, we are simply pointing out that amillennialism is not only false, it directly mocks God and calls Him a liar. If you have to continually bolster your doctrine by always tearing down another doctrine, yours can't be very strong. If it was strong, it would stand up to scrutiny without attempts to deflect the focus onto something else.

The Throne of David is an earthly throne. It is the throne that the Pope attempts to fill today as spiritual ruler over the earth. It is the throne that Christ will sit upon when He returns to this earth and rules from it during the Millennial Kingdom.

I'm not disdainful of a PROPER literal interpretation. All the things described in Revelation literally occurred. There are symbols from the OT used by John through the Holy Spirit to explain what was about to literally occur. My problem with pre-tribulationism is that so many people are buying into it and it's being pushed publically and in the churches as the only way the parousia could occur. Answer me honestly Cobalt, when is the last time you've heard in a Church or seen a book about any understanding OTHER than pre-tribulational pre-millennialism? And God forbid, if someone tries to present a view OTHER than a pre-trib rapture, they get called down for it.

You're pointing out that amillennialism is false? I agree. Revelation 20 clearly states that there will be a millennial reign. I'm not an amillennialist any more than I am a full preterist.

The question is not "Will there BE a millennium?" but rather "What is the NATURE of the millennium?" Will it be as your understanding suggests, absolutely 100% literal, or does the term "1000 years" mean a long and protracted period of time of pre-eminence (on earth, while Christ rules from heaven), as Isaiah 2:2 suggests. Will Jesus sit in earthly Jerusalem, or does He reign (with the martyrs and those believers who have passed over time) from the Heavenly Jerusalem? I believe the latter. I believe that Christianity became THE pre-eminent religion, the chief of the mountains as Isaiah put it. The pagan religions fell like bowling pins. Christianity in one form or another (Protestant or Catholic) went all over the world, with the exception of a few places. The disciples had preached Christ to the Roman world before 70 AD. They were upsetting the apple-cart of emperor worship. What many well-meaning pre-mills call the Church Age, is in fact the Millennium. It was the time to bring the knowledge of Christ to the world. And now, I believe that time is declining. Satan is loose, doing exactly what John said he would start doing: Deceiving the nations of the world into battle against God and the people of God and the things of God.

Just because I'm not on YOUR understanding's time-schedule doesn't make me wrong. My time schedule says you've missed the boat. Yours says you're still waiting. That's where the real conflict occurs. It's not a theology problem, it's a TIMING problem.

[JohnD]

Ezekiel 37 (NASB95)

1 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and He brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord and set me down in the middle of the valley; and it was full of bones.

2 He caused me to pass among them round about, and behold, there were very many on the surface of the valley; and lo, they were very dry.

3 He said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” And I answered, “O Lord God, You know.”

4 Again He said to me, “Prophesy over these bones and say to them, ‘O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.’

5 “Thus says the Lord God to these bones, ‘Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life.

6 ‘I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the Lord.’ ”

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone.

8 And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them.

9 Then He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life.” ’ ”

10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.

11 Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.’

12 “Therefore prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel.

13 “Then you will know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people.

14 “I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the Lord, have spoken and done it,” declares the Lord.’ ”

15 The word of the Lord came again to me saying,

16 “And you, son of man, take for yourself one stick and write on it, ‘For Judah and for the sons of Israel, his companions’; then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and all the house of Israel, his companions.’

17 “Then join them for yourself one to another into one stick, that they may become one in your hand.

18 “When the sons of your people speak to you saying, ‘Will you not declare to us what you mean by these?’

19 say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will put them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.” ’

20 “The sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes.

21 “Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;

22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations and no longer be divided into two kingdoms.

23 “They will no longer defile themselves with their idols, or with their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. And they will be My people, and I will be their God.

24 “My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them.

25 “They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons’ sons, forever; and David My servant will be their prince forever.

26 “I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever.

27 “My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people.

28 “And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.” ’ ”

Now Preterists of all shapes and sizes said that this would never take place. "God is finished with Israel" they say because they have to say this in order for the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE to be different than the destruction of Jerusalem was in 580 BCE because Jesus said:

Matthew 24:21 (NASB95)

21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

But in 1948 we saw the regathering of the Jews in the Holy Land and the formation of the State with no religion (breath).