What a partial preterist believes

[Guest]

..... The question is not "Will there BE a millennium?" but rather "What is the NATURE of the millennium....

The Descendant Of King David

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. Revelation 22:16

Will Sit In The Seat Of David In Zion Town

And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me. And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places. Ezekiel 43:6-7

Forever The KING OF THE JEWS

He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Luke 1:32-33

LORD OF LORDS And KING OF KINGS

And My LORD And My God

[Guest shiloh357]

I'm not disdainful of a PROPER literal interpretation. All the things described in Revelation literally occurred.

Revelation describes the bodily return of Jesus. When did that happen? When did Babylon the great fall and when did all the kings weep for her?

Answer me honestly Cobalt, when is the last time you've heard in a Church or seen a book about any understanding OTHER than pre-tribulational pre-millennialism? And God forbid, if someone tries to present a view OTHER than a pre-trib rapture, they get called down for it.

Hank Hanegraff is a very outspoken partial preterist on the radio and in his books, which sell very well.

The question is not "Will there BE a millennium?" but rather "What is the NATURE of the millennium?" Will it be as your understanding suggests, absolutely 100% literal, or does the term "1000 years" mean a long and protracted period of time of pre-eminence (on earth, while Christ rules from heaven), as Isaiah 2:2 suggests. Will Jesus sit in earthly Jerusalem, or does He reign (with the martyrs and those believers who have passed over time) from the Heavenly Jerusalem? I believe the latter.

Which is pretty close to ammillennialism.

I believe that Christianity became THE pre-eminent religion, the chief of the mountains as Isaiah put it.

History says you are wrong.

The pagan religions fell like bowling pins. Christianity in one form or another (Protestant or Catholic) went all over the world, with the exception of a few places.

That is again a very erroneous view of history.

The disciples had preached Christ to the Roman world before 70 AD. They were upsetting the apple-cart of emperor worship. What many well-meaning pre-mills call the Church Age, is in fact the Millennium.

Which is what ammillennialism teaches as well. The church age is not the millennium because satan has not been bound reglardless of the theological and historical gymnastics you have to perform to argue that he was ever bound.

It was the time to bring the knowledge of Christ to the world. And now, I believe that time is declining. Satan is loose, doing exactly what John said he would start doing: Deceiving the nations of the world into battle against God and the people of God and the things of God.

Satan has always been loose. It was Satan who used the church to persecute the Jews. Evil and oppression never stopped. Chirsitanity held preeminence in Europe, but it was never

Just because I'm not on YOUR understanding's time-schedule doesn't make me wrong.

That is true. It is the weak rationale, coupled with your erroneous exaggerated version of church history, your theological gymanstics and the poor track record of getting it right in the past when it comes to Israel's restoration that make you wrong.

My time schedule says you've missed the boat. Yours says you're still waiting. That's where the real conflict occurs. It's not a theology problem, it's a TIMING problem.

Yeah those who held to your timing schedule got it wrong about Israel. VERY wrong.

[Bold Believer]

I still say that partial Preterists are shy of reasons why they do not accept full Preterism other than to apply futurist reasons that refute all forms of Preterism (only they refuse to take them to their logical conclusion) so they can continue to believe God is through with the Jewish people. This is simply a form of antisemitism and ignores the scriptures that teach God is never through with Jews and Israel.

In my case, because Full Preterism doesn't fit the timeline of events together correctly.

I suppose because I believe that God still has plans for Israel, I'm not really a partial preterist?

It's not anti-Semitic to believe that God is/was dealing with the Gentiles for a certain time.

[Bold Believer]

I'm not disdainful of a PROPER literal interpretation. All the things described in Revelation literally occurred. There are symbols from the OT used by John through the Holy Spirit to explain what was about to literally occur. My problem with pre-tribulationism is that so many people are buying into it and it's being pushed publically and in the churches as the only way the parousia could occur. Answer me honestly Cobalt, when is the last time you've heard in a Church or seen a book about any understanding OTHER than pre-tribulational pre-millennialism? And God forbid, if someone tries to present a view OTHER than a pre-trib rapture, they get called down for it.

Oh good grief. Can you not drop the victim complex for at least one post? It has already been demonstrated to you, over and over again, several times, that the things you keep saying happened in 70 AD did not happen. Even your vaulted preterist authors can't figure out which scripture to take literally and which to explain away as allegory. It all depends on which way the wind is blowing that day. You have to do spiritual gymnastics to make any of it work. Why in the world would I want to go to a church that taught doctrine with a triple threat to it? It's false, it's antisemitic and it calls God a liar. Your doctrine says God lied to the Jews. I've studied preterism and it's subsets, as well as amillennialism, and honestly, I can't understand how anyone could get sucked in to such a doctrine that depends on an arbitrary interpretation of scripture with absolutely no concrete ground rules. It's the biblical equivalent of repeating that the earth is flat over and over in spite of clear evidence that it is round.

You're pointing out that amillennialism is false? I agree. Revelation 20 clearly states that there will be a millennial reign. I'm not an amillennialist any more than I am a full preterist.

The question is not "Will there BE a millennium?" but rather "What is the NATURE of the millennium?" Will it be as your understanding suggests, absolutely 100% literal, or does the term "1000 years" mean a long and protracted period of time of pre-eminence (on earth, while Christ rules from heaven), as Isaiah 2:2 suggests. Will Jesus sit in earthly Jerusalem, or does He reign (with the martyrs and those believers who have passed over time) from the Heavenly Jerusalem? I believe the latter. I believe that Christianity became THE pre-eminent religion, the chief of the mountains as Isaiah put it. The pagan religions fell like bowling pins. Christianity in one form or another (Protestant or Catholic) went all over the world, with the exception of a few places. The disciples had preached Christ to the Roman world before 70 AD. They were upsetting the apple-cart of emperor worship. What many well-meaning pre-mills call the Church Age, is in fact the Millennium. It was the time to bring the knowledge of Christ to the world. And now, I believe that time is declining. Satan is loose, doing exactly what John said he would start doing: Deceiving the nations of the world into battle against God and the people of God and the things of God.

There is nothing in Isaiah 2 to suggest that Jesus is ruling from heaven. It talks about the same thing that Zechariah 14 talks about. When Jesus returns, jerusalem is raised up higher than the surrounding land. Revelation 20 uses 1000 years 6 times. I think that means 1000 years, literally, not this bogus open-ended thing you are trying to sell. Isaiah 11 and 65 desribe what life will be like during that time period and this is certainly not it. Ezekiel demands a Temple at this time and a restored sacrificial system and we quite obviously do not have that.

The preeminent Christian religion theory again. Can't be taken seriously at all. First of all, Catholicism is not Christianity. You are telling me that God approves of His church being turned into nothing more than a vehicle to further deluded despots wishes to exercise earthly power over Kings and territories and amasse huge chunks of wealth? And doing so by having 1000's of people killed who didn't agree with their "religion" everywhere they went? Catholicism is 10% pseudo Christian theology with 90% pagan junk mixed in. Christianity has never been the preeminent religion of this earth at any time since it was established. As I said before, and you ignored it, it has never taken any kind of hold in Asia at all.

Just because I'm not on YOUR understanding's time-schedule doesn't make me wrong. My time schedule says you've missed the boat. Yours says you're still waiting. That's where the real conflict occurs. It's not a theology problem, it's a TIMING problem.

No, it's an interpretation problem. You have adopted a method of interpretation which has 'rules' that anyone who wants to can make up as they go along. My method of interpretaion has rules and technics which govern how it is applied, and all of them are based on how the Prophets, Apostles and Jesus interpreted scriptures. Your interpretive measures go against everything that they taught us. I think I'll stick with Jesus on this one.

I will stick with Jesus too. Luke 21. Mt 23:36, Mt 24:34, John 6, 1st John, etc. Frankly, I don't think you have a clue. I say, let the Day declare it. When people see your Antichrist never appears, your rapture never happens and your tribulation never comes to pass and the Temple is not rebuilt, they will see that you got it wrong. By the way: who's the antichrist this week?

Believers have been questioning pre-tribulationism for years now and they see the cracks in the armor. It's only a matter of time before the theory falls into disrepute.

[Guest shiloh357]

I will stick with Jesus too. Luke 21. Mt 23:36, Mt 24:34, John 6, 1st John, etc. Frankly, I don't think you have a clue. I say, let the Day declare it. When people see your Antichrist never appears, your rapture never happens and your tribulation never comes to pass and the Temple is not rebuilt, they will see that you got it wrong. By the way: who's the antichrist this week?

Believers have been questioning pre-tribulationism for years now and they see the cracks in the armor. It's only a matter of time before the theory falls into disrepute.

If what you offer up is representative of what everyone else thinks, premillennialism is in no danger of being proved wrong.

[Bold Believer]

I will stick with Jesus too. Luke 21. Mt 23:36, Mt 24:34, John 6, 1st John, etc. Frankly, I don't think you have a clue. I say, let the Day declare it. When people see your Antichrist never appears, your rapture never happens and your tribulation never comes to pass and the Temple is not rebuilt, they will see that you got it wrong. By the way: who's the antichrist this week?

Believers have been questioning pre-tribulationism for years now and they see the cracks in the armor. It's only a matter of time before the theory falls into disrepute.

I do not see how that is going to happen when you are unable to refute any of the problems with your doctrine that we bring up with anything that is actually solid. Everything is explained away by an allegorical or spiritualized interpretation or trying to string scripture together like Christmas lights.

Preterism has always been a fringe doctrine and will always be a fringe doctrine. It has very few adherents for a reason. Because it is in error. I've been waiting for years for you to actually address the interpretation problem and you consistently avoid it like the plague. If preterism's other purveyors expose "chinks in the armor" of other end-times doctrines the way you do, other end-times doctrines don't have anything to worry about.

Chinks in the armor? Well let's see:

1. Pre-mils (and especially pre-trib folk) ignore Jesus' comments on the Last Day Resurrection.

2. Pre-mils ignore the comment by Jesus that 'this generation' will not pass until all these things come to pass

3. Pre-mils mistranslate the word 'genea' (generation) as race

4. Pre-mils keep telling us that a mysterious antichrist will arise, but he never shows up. They've been saying that since 1830 when Darby popularized the pre-trib teaching

5. Pre-mils ignore John's clear identification of what an antichrist really is

6. Pre-mils ignore the fact that Believers are the temple of God

7. Pre-mils expect reinstatement of animal sacrifices, a total insult to Christ's once for all sacrifice

8. Pre-mils ignore Peter's vivid description of the Last Day (2 Peter 3:10)

9. Pre-mils take Paul's I Cor 15 description of the last day changing of Believer's bodies and make it into something he never said: a secret half-coming

10. Pre-mils take John's clear admonition in Revelation that 'the time is at hand' and try to move it from the near future to the distant future

11. Pre-mils ignore the true meaning of the 1000 years of Revelation 20 and try to make it into a Golden Age

These are just a few of the errors of pre-millennial pre-tribulationists. I haven't the time to go into all of them, there are too many.

[Guest]

The Kingdom Of God

But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Matthew 12:28

And His Kingship

And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod. And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt. Isaiah 11

Can You Believe It?

[Zemke]

The term "Partial preterist" says to me that another point is also "partially" correct. Actually all points of view have a place as a whole. Is preterism true, yes, is historicism true, yes, is poemisism true, yes, is futurism true, yes, but to hold to one and none of the others is very Greek and wrong. We will never grasp the understanding of Jewish prophecy with Greek minds. Jews look at prophecy as pattern. The prophets were Jewish. Picking prophecy camps like we pick philosophers doesn't work with biblical prophecy. Nor for that matter can picking one theology help with every aspect of doctrine. It's just unbalanced and blinding to other truths.

Biblical prophecy is a pattern until ultimately everything written is fulfilled. The climax being the revelation of our Lord. Which is not a single event. An example, The resurrection has already begun, we are not waiting for the resurrection but our role in it. Jesus is the first fruits of the resurrection, with Christ the resurrection has already begun. So too is His coming, He has come, He is coming, He will come. We were saved, we are being saved, we will be saved. When you see "all" these things begin to happen "then" look up, your redemption draws near.

There is an abomination right now at the Temple mount. An inscription on the Dome of the Rock says something like "Allah is not begotten nor does he beget" meaning "God has no son". And also the church is called the temple of the Holy Spirit and how is the church doing these days? There have been multiple abominations since AD70 and ultimately there will be an abomination that makes desolate in the future.

The return of our Lord began the moment he left and yes 70AD was a "partial" fulfillment of the words of Jesus but what didn't happen will happen and what did happen will happen again even heavier. Jesus said tribulation like never before and will not be again. Was what the Jews and the prophet Jeremiah experienced with the Babylonian siege and captivity less than 70AD? Certainly worse things have happened since and we all know far worse things can easily happen today.

Think Hebrew.

That would be a good bumper sticker.