Guest yod Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I understand they have been found, I just don't understand why we ever adopted a naming policy where the Northern Kingdom were identified by the name of the Southern Kingdom??? Many words have multiple meanings in hebrew, just like in english or many other languages. Because they were split for a time, the definitions of Jew or Israel was expanded, but they were still interchangable even then, depending on the context and usage. That ended when they came back from the Babylonian and Assyrian captivity though. They are interchangeable again since about 500 B.C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted January 22, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 Consider this - Anna in the New Testament was from the tribe of Asher. Do you suppose she was called "Hebrew" or a "Jew"? The descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who lived in other lands were called "the Jews of the Diaspora", no the "Hebrews". (Judah, if you recall, was taken only to the kingdom of Babylon; yet the Jews of other lands came from all over the place (note nations listed in Acts 2). Does this make sense? Chances are the label "Jew" got stuck on the people of the nation of Judah (which also contained the tribes of Benjamin and Levi); after a group of them re-established Israel anyone returning from any of the other tribes got stuck with the same title, then eventually they all came to be known by that title throughout the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~candice~ Posted January 22, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 955 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 11,318 Content Per Day: 1.89 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 33 Joined: 12/16/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2012 Consider this - Anna in the New Testament was from the tribe of Asher. Do you suppose she was called "Hebrew" or a "Jew"? The descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who lived in other lands were called "the Jews of the Diaspora", no the "Hebrews". (Judah, if you recall, was taken only to the kingdom of Babylon; yet the Jews of other lands came from all over the place (note nations listed in Acts 2). Does this make sense? I'm not disputing it Neb, just find it interesting, that's all. I've leant more towards calling them Hebrews because of the period of time that the feasts etc come from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted January 22, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 909 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,656 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,839 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2012 Just wanted to say it is not Jewish roots but Hebrew roots. Talking with a rabbi on the Torah portions this week and as he was relaying how the Jews were in the desert I asked him what happened to the other 11 tribes. That turned into a great convo where he did say that there were no 'Jews' until the split of the kingdom, that he thinks the only reason everything is 'Jewish' is because it was really on 'Judah' and or Judeans. As we went along into talking he left off everything Jewish and refered to Hebrews because as he said God did not call Jews but Israel out of the Egypt and it is Israel regathered that He will bring into the kingdom. I thought that was one of the most amazing things I have heard in a long time. shalom Mizz Mizz, not to oppose you or the good rabbi... but you aren't doing with the term Hebrew what you accuse us of doing with the term Jew? Colloquialism is more a part of human language than clinically precise definition of terms. The term "Jew" came to embrace all that is Israeli since precisely what you said came to pass: Judah / Judea was the primary state (or last existing state) of all Hebrews from 586 BCE to 1948 CE. The term "Hebrew" (sons of Eber) was at one time applicable to at least 1/3 of all peoples and tribes of Mesopotamia and came to refer to just the children of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. Are you willing to scrutinize the literal meaning of the word Hebrew as you are the word Jew? If so... then Esau was Hebrew... The people Abram left behind in Ur of the Chaldeans were Hebrew... If there was a way to document a modern Jew's ancestry to the tribal origins within the ancient Israeli order, most who are Jewish and live as Jews are probably not from the literal tribe of Yehudah but other tribes in the Israeli order. It does not surprise me and I do not doubt that there are knit-pickers who make a big deal about the actual clinical literal definition of precise terms to either stir up a fuss or make a name for themselves (not pointing the finger at you, Mizzdy, rather I sense in you merely the conviction of what you think is discovered truth, the ones who impressed you are the ones I am referring to). Here's another... Genesis 5:2 (NASB95) 2 He created them male and female, and He blessed them and named them Man in the day when they were created. He called them man??? The social deconstructionists were right! There IS no difference between women so stop the segregation and unify all the public bathrooms. Do you see my point? There is merit to precise word meaning and definition so long as it brings us to the understanding of what is meant by a passage. But if it introduces confusion or misunderstanding then it is not good. The Holy Spirit anticipated this which is why such passages as Genesis 5:2 are in place to focus us on the meaning rather than the use of human language to communicate the point. You will probably find that behind this microscopic approach to the term "Jew" is an Anglo Israeli cult belief system which (in extreme cases) makes England and America Ephraim and Manasseh. I have studied these and other modern day attempts to make people who want to be Jewish / Israeli out to be members of the "lost 10 tribes", but they all come short. What I have found (as you know from my past posts) is that ours is a Hebrew Faith and it never stopped being that.. despite antisemitic efforts in our own ranks to expunge everything Hebrew from the faith for the last two millennia in the name of ridding the faith of legalism... and that yearning in the hearts of some to discover a Jewish heritage in their life is rather a spiritual yearning for the spiritual heritage all believers in the Jewish Messiah Jesus have. But as for terms and phrases and manners of speaking (colloquialism) these are what make the perfectly true word of God seem to be at times untrue because God condescended to allow his perfect infallible word to be transmitted / communicated through extremely imperfect human language and expose it to extremely imperfect human understanding and subject it to extremely imperfect human reasoning so that some of us knuckleheads down here might be saved. And knowing how high God esteems his word, that's saying a lot! Psalm 138:2 (NASB95) 2 I will bow down toward Your holy temple And give thanks to Your name for Your lovingkindness and Your truth; For You have magnified Your word according to all Your name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizzdy Posted January 22, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 173 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,911 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 10 Joined: 03/21/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2012 clearly there was a time in history when they were not. But that was thousands of years ago....for a very short time relatively. Sure... though I don't know how that works with the northern tribes? Don't know how "what" works? Do you know that all those tribes have been found? They are in the east from Assyria to india. Seems like we are approaching the time when they will all be restored to their land....it's not Florida. . Have they? Certainly according to many of the organizations in Israel only those with Jewish blood are Gods children and the 'gentiles' have no part in Gods coming world. I also know several in Israel today who have come to the conclusion that many of us gentiles who are keeping His feasts and Sabbaths who are all part of the scattered northern tribe. One man I know has been battling with this notion for a decade or more who has come to the same conclusion and is starting to put together a book on the subject, he is a tour guide in Israel who listens to those he guides who are coming to the conclusion also. Why people get all upset and freaked out that there still are 'lost tribes' I dont think they are lost at all but have lost who they are and are waking to the idea they are part of Gods whole plan. Obviously we disagree who Israel is and that God scattered most of them in the nations, and I am fully aware of who was in the land at the time of Messiah. Yet if there are rabbis waking up to this that they may have actually gotten it wrong and God is smarter than they are and that those who are coming out of the mainstream churches may indeed be 'Israel' then how can we not also see that? After all the bible is a story of what God is doing to reconcil back to Himself those who have faith, who love Him, who keep His commandments. Isn't it, a plan of redemption, reconciliation and restoration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizzdy Posted January 22, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 173 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,911 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 10 Joined: 03/21/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2012 I understand they have been found, I just don't understand why we ever adopted a naming policy where the Northern Kingdom were identified by the name of the Southern Kingdom??? Many words have multiple meanings in hebrew, just like in english or many other languages. Because they were split for a time, the definitions of Jew or Israel was expanded, but they were still interchangable even then, depending on the context and usage. That ended when they came back from the Babylonian and Assyrian captivity though. They are interchangeable again since about 500 B.C. We do read that where some of the northern tribes were still seen in some parts of the lands. Yet I cannot find anywhere where we read that the whole northern tribes, Israel, ever came back after being scattered by God through conquest. There is no record that all those who had been taken captive were all ever returned or came back. I am not arguing for migration patterns or anything like that but God did say He scattered them for idolatry and they would not be allowed to come back because of their apostate hearts but when the hearts are turned towards Him once more then He will bring them back to Him. I still see the renewed covenant as given to the two houses and all their companions that come to Him in faith. Genetics doesn't matter when it comes to faith as we all are grafted into Israel, we are not grafted into Judiasm nor are we grated into being a 'Jew' but into the family He has decided to call Israel. Its understandable that the people living in Judea were all wrapped up together and called 'Jews'. During the time of Messiah it was the visible ones all being called Jews who kept the feasts and Sabbaths, but the identification at the time of Pharoah would have been either Hebrews or Israel not the Jews. Judah is only one of 12 tribes according to God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 .... Do you know that all those tribes have been found? They are in the east from Assyria to india. Seems like we are approaching the time when they will all be restored to their land....it's not Florida.... The First Return Of Northern Tribes To Jerusalem Now these are the children of the province that went up out of the captivity, of those which had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away unto Babylon, and came again unto Jerusalem and Judah, every one unto his city; Ezra 2:1 The whole congregation together was forty and two thousand three hundred and threescore, Ezra 2:64 . So the priests, and the Levites, and some of the people, and the singers, and the porters, and the Nethinims, dwelt in their cities, and all Israel in their cities. Ezra 2:70 And The Continuation Today Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the LORD, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks. Jeremiah 16:16 Hallelujah~! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizzdy Posted January 22, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 173 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,911 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 10 Joined: 03/21/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2012 Mizz, not to oppose you or the good rabbi... but you aren't doing with the term Hebrew what you accuse us of doing with the term Jew? Colloquialism is more a part of human language than clinically precise definition of terms. The term "Jew" came to embrace all that is Israeli since precisely what you said came to pass: Judah / Judea was the primary state (or last existing state) of all Hebrews from 586 BCE to 1948 CE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizzdy Posted January 22, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 173 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,911 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 10 Joined: 03/21/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2012 .... Do you know that all those tribes have been found? They are in the east from Assyria to india. Seems like we are approaching the time when they will all be restored to their land....it's not Florida.... The First Return Of Northern Tribes To Jerusalem Now these are the children of the province that went up out of the captivity, of those which had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away unto Babylon, and came again unto Jerusalem and Judah, every one unto his city; Ezra 2:1 The whole congregation together was forty and two thousand three hundred and threescore, Ezra 2:64 . So the priests, and the Levites, and some of the people, and the singers, and the porters, and the Nethinims, dwelt in their cities, and all Israel in their cities. Ezra 2:70 And The Continuation Today Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the LORD, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks. Jeremiah 16:16 Hallelujah~! Wasn't the northern tribes carried off by the Assyrians and the southern tribe by Babylon? God did promise Judah so many year in captivtiy yet He also told Israel they would be carried away into all the nations and loose their identities and would one day wake up to who they are and come back to Him in faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Now these are the children of the province that went up out of the captivity, of those which had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away unto Babylon, and came again unto Jerusalem and Judah, every one unto his city; Ezra 2:1 The whole congregation together was forty and two thousand three hundred and threescore, Ezra 2:64 . So the priests, and the Levites, and some of the people, and the singers, and the porters, and the Nethinims, dwelt in their cities, and all Israel in their cities. Ezra 2:70 The point is that the terms are interchangable since the days of Ezra and Nehemiah I don't think anyone here is arguing the fact that we are grafted into the olive tree (Israel) and adopted into their familiy as believers...but we can't be grafted into or adopted into something if we are "it". The promises made to The House of Israel & The House of Judah are for the sons of Jacob. Many goyim have been physically joined to the nation of Israel over the centuries, like Ruth of Caleb or the mixed multitudes of Eygpt...but unless you have lived with them (and men would need to be circumcised) then you are adopted into their covenants and promises. 3 Let no foreigner who is bound to the LORD say, “The LORD will surely exclude me from his people.” And let no eunuch complain, “I am only a dry tree.” 4 For this is what the LORD says: “To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant— 5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will endure forever. 6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be his servants, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant— 7 these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations.” 8 The Sovereign LORD declares— he who gathers the exiles of Israel: “I will gather still others to them besides those already gathered.” Here the Lord speaks about the faithful foreigner who will receive honor from Him, even greater honor than sons and daughters! But we also see that He makes a distinction, though they are joined to Israel by observing Sabbath and Feasts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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