Those days shall be shortened

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, rollinTHUNDER.

All this, of course, is ASSUMING that Yeshua` was talking about "the beast ascending to the Temple!" I don't believe that is true. It has been a VERY common error for people to suggest that the "abomination of desolation" which Yeshua` mentioned in Matthew 24:15 is talking about the Antichrist (or rather, the Beast) setting up an idol in the Temple! NOT AT ALL! Yeshua` was not talking about Dani'el 11 or 12! He was talking about a fulfillment of Dani'el 9 IN HIS LIFETIME! Again, I'll say this: DO NOT REDUCE THIS PHRASE TO A LABEL!!!

Not even close! In Daniel 9 we see abominations (plural) and desolations (plural). These are not what Christ was referring to in Matt. 24:15, for this one is (singular) and it will be fulfilled just before the end of the age. Christ was pointing back to the (singular) abomination of desolation that Daniel mentioned in Dan. 11:36-39, which he also mentions again in Daniel 12:9-11.

Well, THAT’S not true! Have you never read Matthew 23?! Yeshua` was NOT talking about Dan. 11 or 12 at all! Matthew 23 DESCRIBES all the myriad ABOMINATIONS the scribes and Pharisees had committed that led to their desolation ! Then, He concludes His speech against them with the words in Matthew 23:37-39 pronouncing them “DESOLATE” in verse 38, and that flows right into Matthew 24 and 25! In fact, the prophecy of Matthew 24 and 25 couldn’t have happened until Matthew 23 happened! Remember: chapter divisions were not introduced within the Bible until the early 13th century by Archbishop Stephen Langton!

I’m not going to get into it all over again in this thread, but Dani’el 11 is about the history of the Jews within the Gentile nations from Medo-Persia to Rome, including Macedon of Alexander the Great, the constant back-and-forth warring on Isra’el’s Land between the Seleucian Empire and the Kingdom of Egypt under the Ptolemies, and the brief governing of the Maccabees and his brothers! In the specific verses you mention, i.e. 36-39, the passage describes the atrocities of Herod the Great as Caesar Augustus’ vassal king, not some ficticious “Antichrist” of the future!

And, Dan. 12:9-11 is talking about approximately 3.5 years after the abomination of desolation set up by Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 167 B.C. which would be after his death in 164 B.C. It was at this time that Y'hudah haMakhaviy (Judas Maccabeus or Judah the "Hammer") and his family, the Hasmonean Dynasty from 140 to 116 B.C. made their greatest impact since the Jews first came back to Y'hudah and Yerushalayim.

Matt. 24:14-15

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Daniel 11:36-39

And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

37Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

38But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

39Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.

40And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. (singular and final abomination of desolation)

Daniel 12:8-13

And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Now how do we know that this singular abomination of desolation will occur at the time of the end. Because there is no denying the resurrection after the time of trouble, which Christ called tribulation, and immediately afterwards He sends the angels to gather His elect (rapture). This should come as no surprise, because Paul later put the two together, as he unveiled this mystery:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

No wonder Daniel was told to shut up the words and seal the book until the time of the end, because it was none other than Christ, Himself, that came about 500 years later and increased the knowledge that Daniel was forbidden to know, and finished Daniel's prophecy.

I know this is not what you believe, but if you want to convince me that the abomination is already past, then you must show me where the resurrection/rapture was fulfilled in the first century.

First, the resurrection/rapture was NOT fulfilled in the first century! The abomination is already past, however, because that was how the tribulation (or rather, the pressure) was started! The solution is that the pressure is a lot longer than a mere 7 years! The pressure is primarily on the Jewish people, and it has been on them since the first century A.D. It's a part of the time period known as Ya`aqov's Trouble (Jacob's Trouble), the Times of the Goyim (Gentiles), also identified with the time when Yerushalayim is trodden under foot by the Goyim. The city has been in the hands of the Jews since 1967; however, not completely. The Goyim - the Arabs who call themselves "Palestinians" as though that gives them a right to God's Land - still have a Mosque and a Dome upon the platform where the Temple once stood. There are a score of minerets all over the city calling people to worship a false god, and 3/4 of the city is still given to Goyim who contend with the Jews as to the importance and the ownership of the city.

Yeshua` was not talking about way off in His future! He was talking to His disciples about their NEAR future, the time between 65 and 70 A.D.! There are several internal clues that point to that interpretation: 1) the Road of the Rooftops that is meaningless today, 2) the escape into the mountains of Isra'el, 3) the destruction of Jerusalem, 4) the need to avoid fleeing on the Shabbat, which would only be important to a Jew, 5) the fact that there even WAS a Temple at the time, 6) the importance of the "Christ" or the "Messiah" to the Jews that would cause them to take the bait and fall into traps designed to kill them simply because someone reported that he or she had seen Him, and 7) internal betrayal, deception, and hatred against members of one's own family! Verses 6 and 7 suggest a long, LONG time!

Understand, too, that Yeshua` is a JEW, and He will think like a Jew and communicate like a Jew to fellow Jews! Thus, Matthew 24 and 25 (as well as Mark 13 and Luke 21) are not told in strict, chronological sequence! He will give His disciples something they must watch out for, and then He will let it develop through the centuries, and finally speak about a particular subject off in the distant future, our future! Then, HE GOES BACK and tells about a different subject, letting it develop through the centuries, and finally speak about the subject is the distant future again! He does this several times in Matthew 24, for instance. When the KJV uses the pronouns "ye" and "you," "your" and "yours," Yeshua` is talking directly to His students again! When the pronouns become more nebulous or speak in the third person (he, she, it, they, etc.), then He is no longer talking about His immediate students' time period!

Thus, when Yeshua` said "When YE shall see the abomination of desolation...," He is talking directly to His students sitting or standing right there before Him on Har haZeitiym (the Mount of Olives) as something THEY PERSONALLY shall see! If you will follow this pattern, you will discover that verse 9 is when the "tribulation" starts and Yeshua` is speaking directly to His students - "Then shall they deliver YOU up to be afflicted, and shall kill YOU: and YE shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."

By contrast, Yeshua` is off in the future when He speaks verses 29-31 (not a "ye" or a "you" in them)! - "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,..."

Therefore, the "tribulation" or the "pressure" or the "stress" stretches from the first century to beyond our time period, when Yeshua` returns! And, it is when Yeshua` returns that we have the "resurrection/rapture."

[Bible2]

douggg said in post #15:

I take it that you are placing the rapture on day 1335. That is highly unlikely because we don't know the day nor hour.

Matthew 24:36,42,44 is referring to Jesus' second coming (Matthew 24:37b,42b,44b), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30). So in Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus could mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually), his second coming will happen when they aren't expecting it (cf. Revelation 3:3b). In the immediate context of Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus suggests that it's possible for believers to know when his second coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a, cf. 1 Thessalonians 5:4).

Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it's possible that at some point in the future some men will know the date of Jesus' second coming before it happens.

Compare the following two verses:

"...of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36).

"...the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Corinthians 2:11).

If we claim that the first verse means that no man will ever know the date of Jesus' second coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to claim that the second verse means that no man, not even believers, can know the things of God. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can reveal to believers the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13); he can guide believers into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (John 16:13), including the date of Jesus' second coming before it happens. For, again, Jesus suggests that it's possible for believers to know when his second coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a, cf. 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the second coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of Jesus' second coming. It could occur on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a third Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15; Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

douggg said in post #15:

I do believe that there will be a rapture. I believe it will be pre-70th week rapture.

By "pre-70th week rapture", do you mean a pre-tribulation rapture?

If so, note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-trib rapture. Instead, the Bible makes clear that the rapture will be immediately after the tribulation. For Matthew 24:30-31 is referring to the same second coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which is referring to the same second coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Matthew 24:29 shows that these things won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18. That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' second coming and the resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7-20:6; cf. 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church and the Antichrist sits in a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15-31, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place of a third Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' return, his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30) and then marry the obedient portion of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, cf. Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before the obedient portion of the church mounts white horses and comes back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the unsaved armies of the world (Revelation 19:15-21).

Jesus will then make the wedding supper of Revelation 19:9 for the just-resurrected and married obedient portion of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9, 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient portion of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of partial preterism or full preterism or historicism) could leave some believers less prepared mentally to go through the coming tribulation.

The Bible gives us clear warning ahead of time about everything that we're going to have to face during the coming tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation 1:3, Revelation 22:16) of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18, so that we can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Mark 13:5-6,21-23, Luke 21:8, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that we can be better prepared mentally to endure the coming tribulation with patience and faith unto the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13), and not get so mad at God over our and our loved ones' awful suffering during the coming tribulation (cf. Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21) that we wrongly employ our free will to depart from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Timothy 4:4, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Luke 8:13, Matthew 24:9-13), to the ultimate loss of our salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Hebrews 10:38-39).

[Bible2]

Retrobyter said in post #22:

Replacement Theology

Even though the church is Israel (Revelation 21:9b,12b, 1 Peter 2:9-10), the church doesn't "replace" Israel, because Gentiles in the church are grafted in to become only parts of an already-existing Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) which also includes the Jews in the church (Romans 11:1).

This is necessary because all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9b,12b).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, exrockstar.

Hello, im curious if you see Matthew 10:22 as something that has been fulfilled. I'm falling under that impression?

I don't usually do this, but let me answer a question with a question:

Matthew 10:5-7

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

KJV

Do you see Matthew 10:5-7 as something that has been fulfilled? If so, it's all part of the same speech and commission by Yeshua`. If not, how WOULD you see them being fulfilled???

[Jasher]

Shalom, exrockstar.

And before that he will make Christians out to be liars and deceivers and the cause of all the ills of mankind since 2000 years ago. Read that "the world will hate you for my names sake... and brother will betray brother to death and a child their parents etc. Sound familiar? We will be despised by all because our existence will interrupt whatever the beast will promise in a package deal to the world enlightenment, heaven, whatever but so long as Christians live we will by our very lives hinder this transformation... 666 will be the tracking system using it to hunt down the one people on earth who will not receive it. Remember this means no buying food or shelter or medicine or clothes...

i thought Jesus was talking to the Jews, that the world will hate them, not hating the Chrisitans.

You're exactly right! Somehow, many "Christians" have made out Scriptures that were intended for the Jews as though they were intended for the "Christians!" But, they do this FREQUENTLY! It's all part of the remnants of the Replacement Theology that was formed in the mire and muck of Antisemitism and Allegorical Interpretation of Scripture in the 200s and 300s A.D., acquiring a foothold under Roman Emperor Constantine.

It's like trying to pull weeds that break off at the surface of the ground; they keep growing back! We just can't seem to get rid of them! It's shameful! It's disgusting! And, IT'S WRONG! That's NOT what the Scriptures teach AT ALL!

I always get very confused when people talk about "Replacment Theology." These explanations do not fit my paradigm of the Bible logically.

Are you saying that the Old Covenant is still running parallel to the New? Futurism seems to be saying this when they talk about one plan of God for the Church and a different one for the Jews. What would we call this? parallelism? Can anyone define this in a simple way that I can understand?

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Bible2.

Retrobyter said in post #22:

Replacement Theology

Even though the church is Israel (Revelation 21:9b,12b, 1 Peter 2:9-10), the church doesn't "replace" Israel, because Gentiles in the church are grafted in to become only parts of an already-existing Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) which also includes the Jews in the church (Romans 11:1).

This is necessary because all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9b,12b).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

I think we're basically on the same page, but here's an important distinction: The church is NOT Isra'el; Isra'el is the CHURCH! (See Acts 7:38 below.) Gentiles - Goyim - do NOT have a "corner on the market," so to speak, when it comes to "church!"

Acts 7:35-40

35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.

36 He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.

37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,

40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

KJV

(I HATE using the Scriptures this way, btw. I would MUCH rather repeat the whole of Stephen's message, which was a wonderful history of the Jews/Isra'elis and how they ended up rejecting the Messiah. However, sometimes one will only read a single verse or two before they lose concentration and their attention span drifts.)

The word "church" in verse 38 is the same word used everywhere else in Scripture translated as "church," the Greek word "ekkleesia." The word literally means a "called-out (assembly)." Even the town meeting in Ephesus in Acts 19:32, 39, and 41, only there it was translated as "assembly." Somebody later began to use the term with another Greek word "ekkleesia kurioskon," meaning the "called-out (assembly) of-the-Lord." The second word stuck and down through the centuries and through various languages became the English word "church." Through a particular group of people who assumed they "had the corner on" God, it was then given emphasis as "the Church." It was called "universal" ("catholic") and came to be treated as an entity - a corporation - a "body-ation!"

But, it is ISRA'EL (the Isra'el that was under David's and Shlomo's [solomon's] rule and will be again under Yeshua`s rule) that is the "olive tree" into which we all - both Jew and Goy (Gentile) - are grafted, not the "church!"

And, you're right about Romans 11 and Ephesians 2!

Romans 11:11-29

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they (Israel) should fall? God forbid (i.e., NO WAY!): but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? (LITERAL RESURRECTION!)

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (God doesn't retract or renig on His promises!)

KJV

Ephesians 2:11-22

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ (i.e., without a Messiah), being aliens from the commonwealth (alienated from the citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise (foreigners to the Promise contracts), having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh (close) by the blood of Christ (the Messiah's blood).

14 For he (the Messiah) is our peace (shalom), who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off (the Goyim or Gentiles), and to them that were nigh (the Jews or Isra'elis).

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners (foreigners and alien-visitors), but fellowcitizens with the saints (co-citizens with the "holy ones", those set apart, the Isra'elis), and of the household (family) of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone (the "head angle-stone," or capstone);

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

KJV

The whole point in BOTH passages is that those of us who are Gentiles (Goyim) by birth, non-Jews, are grafted into Yeshua`s Isra'el, not into some fictitious entity called the "church!"

[rollinTHUNDER]

Shalom, rollinTHUNDER.

All this, of course, is ASSUMING that Yeshua` was talking about "the beast ascending to the Temple!" I don't believe that is true. It has been a VERY common error for people to suggest that the "abomination of desolation" which Yeshua` mentioned in Matthew 24:15 is talking about the Antichrist (or rather, the Beast) setting up an idol in the Temple! NOT AT ALL! Yeshua` was not talking about Dani'el 11 or 12! He was talking about a fulfillment of Dani'el 9 IN HIS LIFETIME! Again, I'll say this: DO NOT REDUCE THIS PHRASE TO A LABEL!!!

Not even close! In Daniel 9 we see abominations (plural) and desolations (plural). These are not what Christ was referring to in Matt. 24:15, for this one is (singular) and it will be fulfilled just before the end of the age. Christ was pointing back to the (singular) abomination of desolation that Daniel mentioned in Dan. 11:36-39, which he also mentions again in Daniel 12:9-11.

Well, THAT’S not true! Have you never read Matthew 23?! Yeshua` was NOT talking about Dan. 11 or 12 at all! Matthew 23 DESCRIBES all the myriad ABOMINATIONS the scribes and Pharisees had committed that led to their desolation ! Then, He concludes His speech against them with the words in Matthew 23:37-39 pronouncing them “DESOLATE” in verse 38, and that flows right into Matthew 24 and 25! In fact, the prophecy of Matthew 24 and 25 couldn’t have happened until Matthew 23 happened! Remember: chapter divisions were not introduced within the Bible until the early 13th century by Archbishop Stephen Langton!

I’m not going to get into it all over again in this thread, but Dani’el 11 is about the history of the Jews within the Gentile nations from Medo-Persia to Rome, including Macedon of Alexander the Great, the constant back-and-forth warring on Isra’el’s Land between the Seleucian Empire and the Kingdom of Egypt under the Ptolemies, and the brief governing of the Maccabees and his brothers! In the specific verses you mention, i.e. 36-39, the passage describes the atrocities of Herod the Great as Caesar Augustus’ vassal king, not some ficticious “Antichrist” of the future!

And, Dan. 12:9-11 is talking about approximately 3.5 years after the abomination of desolation set up by Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 167 B.C. which would be after his death in 164 B.C. It was at this time that Y'hudah haMakhaviy (Judas Maccabeus or Judah the "Hammer") and his family, the Hasmonean Dynasty from 140 to 116 B.C. made their greatest impact since the Jews first came back to Y'hudah and Yerushalayim.

What's not true? I agree that their house was left desolate (Matt.23) in the past (70 A.D.), but this desolation was one of several. It was not the abomination of desolation that He mentions after He departed the multitude and the temple (Matt.24).

I'm in no way discounting what Christ said to the multitudes and His disciples in Matt. 23, and the judgment that fell upon that wicked generation, just as He prophesied. But in Matt. 24, Christ departed from the multitude and left the temple, which is when His disciples questioned Him in private.

Matthew 24:1-3

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Their question is not just about the destruction of the temple. It reaches much farther than the temple's destruction. That is merely the starting point, but you take a very unbalanced view of His answer, tipping the scales in heavy favor 70 AD, while neglecting the future. In fact, I recall you saying in another thread that the only thing future in His answer was the sun, moon and stars. Mark 13 and Luke 21 also mention these things, but Matthew brings much more of the future into view, as Christ does not finish His answer to their question until the end of chapter 25, which is two entire chapters, most of which is about the future (the tribulation, His coming and the end of the world/age), beginning at verse 15.

Matthew 24 contains both past and future events, and so does Daniel 11.

But to say that the abomination of desolation in Daniel 12 was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes is just ridiculous. In verse 1 of Daniel 12, it says "AT THAT TIME" not just once, but twice, which points back to the same abomination of desolation in Daniel 11. It is not referring to another abomination of desolation, but rather, it shows the time remaining to the end of the age, as you can plainly see the dead wakening from the dust of the earth in verse 2, which is none other that the resurrection of the just.

Daniel 12:1-2

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel 12:11-13

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Daniel 12 is all about the timing.

Do you see the resurrection in Daniel 12?

Do you see Christ sending the angels to gather His elect in Matthew 24:29-31?

Matthew 24:29-31

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Do you really believe this abomination of desolation was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes, which happened before Christ came?

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, Jasher.

Shalom, exrockstar.

And before that he will make Christians out to be liars and deceivers and the cause of all the ills of mankind since 2000 years ago. Read that "the world will hate you for my names sake... and brother will betray brother to death and a child their parents etc. Sound familiar? We will be despised by all because our existence will interrupt whatever the beast will promise in a package deal to the world enlightenment, heaven, whatever but so long as Christians live we will by our very lives hinder this transformation... 666 will be the tracking system using it to hunt down the one people on earth who will not receive it. Remember this means no buying food or shelter or medicine or clothes...

i thought Jesus was talking to the Jews, that the world will hate them, not hating the Chrisitans.

You're exactly right! Somehow, many "Christians" have made out Scriptures that were intended for the Jews as though they were intended for the "Christians!" But, they do this FREQUENTLY! It's all part of the remnants of the Replacement Theology that was formed in the mire and muck of Antisemitism and Allegorical Interpretation of Scripture in the 200s and 300s A.D., acquiring a foothold under Roman Emperor Constantine.

It's like trying to pull weeds that break off at the surface of the ground; they keep growing back! We just can't seem to get rid of them! It's shameful! It's disgusting! And, IT'S WRONG! That's NOT what the Scriptures teach AT ALL!

I always get very confused when people talk about "Replacment Theology." These explanations do not fit my paradigm of the Bible logically.

Are you saying that the Old Covenant is still running parallel to the New? Futurism seems to be saying this when they talk about one plan of God for the Church and a different one for the Jews. What would we call this? parallelism? Can anyone define this in a simple way that I can understand?

Bluntly, yes. The Old Covenant is still running parallel to the New Covenant because the New Covenant does not REPLACE the Old; it ENHANCES the Old! He writes His Law upon the hearts of individuals - WHAT "Law?" It's the SAME LAW that's already been given! The beauty is that we no longer are FORCED to keep His Law for reconciliation with God; Yeshua` has already done that for us! However, we can (and IMO should) keep the Law simply because we LOVE God and want to make Him happy! We no longer desire to sin because, Christ having already paid for those sins, each time we sin becomes one more sin for which He had to pay! Understand? It's like every time we sin, we've driven those nails in his hands and feet a little deeper! Every time we sin against God, it is a sin PAID, but it's also another thorn in His "crown!"

Now, not all futurism sees Isra'el and the "church" as two different entities. That has more to do with dispensationalism - the idea that God had different dispensations for different time periods in human history. That's where you get into the terminology of an "Age of Innocence," an "Age of Law," and an "Age of Grace," etc. There was a time for dispensationalism as eschatology was developing, but we should have grown beyond that by now. We should understand that in EVERY AGE, God has ALWAYS "saved" people by His grace, through faith, and by blood! However, by compartmentalizing Isra'el and the "church" as two separate entities, many believers have come to appreciate God's love for His people Isra'el and are looking forward to the fulfillment of God's promises to the Jews! The next step is to see that the GENTILES - the non-Jews - are NOT the center of God's plan any more than the earth is the center of the solar system! Just as Copernicus proposed a sun-centered solar system, so too we should understand a Jew-centered set of prophecies in Scripture. Gentiles can get in on the blessings, but they are NOT the center of those blessings! The "church" is NOT the center of those blessings! Gentile believers - branches of a wild olive tree - are grafted into the cultivated Olive Tree of Isra'el as it was under David and Shlomo (Solomon) and will be again under Yeshua`. The Jews are the NATURAL branches of that cultivated Olive Tree! They have the same genetic structure! They are MISHPACHAH - FAMILY! Thus, they are more easily grafted in than Gentiles are! The bottom line is that we who were born as non-Jews, Gentiles after the flesh, become a PART of Isra'el through faith, but that does NOT mean that we ARE Isra'el and the Jews no longer are! That's EXACTLY what Paul told us NOT to do in Romans 11! Don't boast against the natural branches! There's nothing in us that made us deserve God's grace! We were just fortunate (or rather, in God's providence) to be included! But, one should ask, "included into WHAT?" or "included with WHOM?"

Hope this has helped.

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, rollinTHUNDER.

Shalom, rollinTHUNDER.

All this, of course, is ASSUMING that Yeshua` was talking about "the beast ascending to the Temple!" I don't believe that is true. It has been a VERY common error for people to suggest that the "abomination of desolation" which Yeshua` mentioned in Matthew 24:15 is talking about the Antichrist (or rather, the Beast) setting up an idol in the Temple! NOT AT ALL! Yeshua` was not talking about Dani'el 11 or 12! He was talking about a fulfillment of Dani'el 9 IN HIS LIFETIME! Again, I'll say this: DO NOT REDUCE THIS PHRASE TO A LABEL!!!

Not even close! In Daniel 9 we see abominations (plural) and desolations (plural). These are not what Christ was referring to in Matt. 24:15, for this one is (singular) and it will be fulfilled just before the end of the age. Christ was pointing back to the (singular) abomination of desolation that Daniel mentioned in Dan. 11:36-39, which he also mentions again in Daniel 12:9-11.

Well, THAT’S not true! Have you never read Matthew 23?! Yeshua` was NOT talking about Dan. 11 or 12 at all! Matthew 23 DESCRIBES all the myriad ABOMINATIONS the scribes and Pharisees had committed that led to their desolation ! Then, He concludes His speech against them with the words in Matthew 23:37-39 pronouncing them “DESOLATE” in verse 38, and that flows right into Matthew 24 and 25! In fact, the prophecy of Matthew 24 and 25 couldn’t have happened until Matthew 23 happened! Remember: chapter divisions were not introduced within the Bible until the early 13th century by Archbishop Stephen Langton!

I’m not going to get into it all over again in this thread, but Dani’el 11 is about the history of the Jews within the Gentile nations from Medo-Persia to Rome, including Macedon of Alexander the Great, the constant back-and-forth warring on Isra’el’s Land between the Seleucian Empire and the Kingdom of Egypt under the Ptolemies, and the brief governing of the Maccabees and his brothers! In the specific verses you mention, i.e. 36-39, the passage describes the atrocities of Herod the Great as Caesar Augustus’ vassal king, not some ficticious “Antichrist” of the future!

And, Dan. 12:9-11 is talking about approximately 3.5 years after the abomination of desolation set up by Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 167 B.C. which would be after his death in 164 B.C. It was at this time that Y'hudah haMakhaviy (Judas Maccabeus or Judah the "Hammer") and his family, the Hasmonean Dynasty from 140 to 116 B.C. made their greatest impact since the Jews first came back to Y'hudah and Yerushalayim.

What's not true? I agree that their house was left desolate (Matt.23) in the past (70 A.D.), but this desolation was one of several. It was not the abomination of desolation that He mentions after He departed the multitude and the temple (Matt.24).

I'm in no way discounting what Christ said to the multitudes and His disciples in Matt. 23, and the judgment that fell upon that wicked generation, just as He prophesied. But in Matt. 24, Christ departed from the multitude and left the temple, which is when His disciples questioned Him in private.

Matthew 24:1-3

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Their question is not just about the destruction of the temple. It reaches much farther than the temple's destruction. That is merely the starting point, but you take a very unbalanced view of His answer, tipping the scales in heavy favor 70 AD, while neglecting the future. In fact, I recall you saying in another thread that the only thing future in His answer was the sun, moon and stars. Mark 13 and Luke 21 also mention these things, but Matthew brings much more of the future into view, as Christ does not finish His answer to their question until the end of chapter 25, which is two entire chapters, most of which is about the future (the tribulation, His coming and the end of the world/age), beginning at verse 15.

Matthew 24 contains both past and future events, and so does Daniel 11.

But to say that the abomination of desolation in Daniel 12 was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes is just ridiculous. In verse 1 of Daniel 12, it says "AT THAT TIME" not just once, but twice, which points back to the same abomination of desolation in Daniel 11. It is not referring to another abomination of desolation, but rather, it shows the time remaining to the end of the age, as you can plainly see the dead wakening from the dust of the earth in verse 2, which is none other that the resurrection of the just.

Daniel 12:1-2

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel 12:11-13

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Daniel 12 is all about the timing.

Do you see the resurrection in Daniel 12?

Do you see Christ sending the angels to gather His elect in Matthew 24:29-31?

Matthew 24:29-31

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Do you really believe this abomination of desolation was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes, which happened before Christ came?

What's not true? That Yeshua` was talking about Dani'el 11 or 12! That's what is not true. He was talking about Dani'el 9:24-27! YES! I believe that the "abomination of desolation" spoken about in Dani'el 11 and 12 was fulfilled by Antiochus IV Epiphanes; HOWEVER, what Yeshua` was talking about - Dani'el 9 - was NOT fulfilled by Antiochus! It was fulfilled by the elders of Y'hudah (Judah) - the scribes and P'rushiym (Pharisees) - at the time of Yeshua`s death and resurrection!

The abominations caused the desolation, and the desolation caused an abomination! The rejections of the Messiah caused the Messiah to pronounce them desolate, and the desolation in which He left them led to the Temple being destroyed! Furthermore, the desolation in which He left them is not over, yet! It won't be over until they can say, "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHWH!" "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord!" or "Welcome, Comer in the authority of YAHUWH!" speaking in prayer to God regarding Yeshua` haMashiach, Jesus the Messiah or the Christ, the Son of God! Can you see that this makes sense?

Sure I see the Resurrection in Dani'el 12:2, but I also see the Rescue in 12:1c, and a "time of trouble" in which we still exist in 12:1b! I believe Dan. 12:1a was fulfilled in or before the first century A.D.! Thus, the two "at that time"s are not at the SAME time in human history!

Finally, Dani'el 12:11-13 is separated from verses 1 and 2 by other verses neglected and are neither to be connected to 12:1-2 nor are they in chronological order after 12:1-2! Therefore, Dani'el 12:11-13 are not connected to the Rescue and the Resurrection of 12:1-2 and CAN go back to 11:31, which IS the desecration of the Temple by Antiochus IV Epiphanes!

[Bible2]

Jasher said in post #28:

Are you saying that the Old Covenant is still running parallel to the New? Futurism seems to be saying this when they talk about one plan of God for the Church and a different one for the Jews. What would we call this? parallelism? Can anyone define this in a simple way that I can understand?

On the Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law itself was disannulled (Hebrews 7:18-19), abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21-5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9b) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the second covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9b), of the New Covenant law of Jesus Christ (Galatians 6:2b, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6, 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21) or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21-5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing unto others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

The New Covenant is a new law (Hebrews 7:12, Hebrews 7:18-19, Hebrews 10), consisting of the commandments given by Jesus Christ himself in the New Testament (John 14:15), such as those commandments he gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19-7:29) and in the writings of Paul the apostle (1 Corinthians 14:37, cf. 1 Thessalonians 4:2). These New Covenant commandments exceed in righteousness the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48). So there's no reason why any believer should ever want to go back under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:2-5:26).

Believers can thank God that the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was just a temporary "schoolmaster" (Galatians 3:24-25), just a temporary "shadow" (Colossians 2:16-17), which God set up because of sins long after he'd set up the original promise of the Abrahamic Covenant and long before he brought that promise to fulfillment in the New Covenant of Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:16-29, Matthew 26:28).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been made obsolete by the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:13). For example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required an Aaronic priesthood (Exodus 30:30), whereas the New Covenant has replaced the Aaronic priesthood with the Melchisedechian priesthood (Hebrews 7:11-28). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required animal sacrifices (e.g. Leviticus 23:19), whereas the New Covenant has replaced those animal sacrifices with the one-time sacrifice of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 10).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law is the Hagar to the New Covenant's Sarah (Galatians 4:22-25), so that those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law are like Ishmael, while those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who keep the New Covenant are like Isaac (Galatians 4:22-31).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law itself, written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 27:8), was the ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:7), the ministration of condemnation (2 Corinthians 3:9a), which has been done away (2 Corinthians 3:11a), which has been abolished (2 Corinthians 3:13b), yet it's still able to spiritually blind some people as with a veil from beholding Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 3:14-16), whereas the New Covenant is the ministration of the spirit (2 Corinthians 3:8,6) and the ministration of righteousness (2 Corinthians 3:9b), which remaineth (2 Corinthians 3:11b), and which permits believers to remove the veil and behold Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 3:16-18, cf. Mark 15:38, Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-18, Colossians 2:14-17).

And yet a mistaken spirit of Pharisaism is still able to deceive even some believers into thinking that they still must keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in order to be saved (Acts 15:1,5), or in order to become perfect (Galatians 3:2-5:26). But this is a false, cursed gospel (Galatians 1:6-9), for if any believers are keeping the letter of any part of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, thinking that they must do so in order to be saved, or in order to become perfect, then they've fallen from grace (Galatians 5:2-8).

Jesus shows in the Sermon on the Mount how his New Covenant, Christian commandments are stricter than the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade murder (Matthew 5:21, Exodus 20:13), whereas the New Covenant law of Jesus Christ forbids even calling people names (Matthew 5:22). Also, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade adultery (Matthew 5:27, Exodus 20:14), whereas the New Covenant law of Jesus Christ forbids even looking at another woman with lust (Matthew 5:28). Also, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law permitted divorce and remarriage (Matthew 5:31, Deuteronomy 24:1-2), whereas the New Covenant law of Jesus Christ forbids it (Matthew 5:32, Mark 10:11-12, Luke 16:18), except for a single exemption granted only to husbands who discover that their newlywed wife isn't a virgin, but had committed fornication (Matthew 19:9).

Jesus also shows in the Sermon on the Mount that while his New Covenant, Christian law is stricter than the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, at the same time it's also more merciful than the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required taking an eye for an eye (Matthew 5:38, Deuteronomy 19:21), whereas the New Covenant law of Jesus Christ requires turning the other cheek (Matthew 5:39). Also, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required hatred for one's enemies (Matthew 5:43b, cf. Deuteronomy 23:6), whereas the New Covenant law of Jesus Christ requires love for one's enemies (Matthew 5:44).

Also, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, the ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:7), required, for example, that adulterers be put to death (Leviticus 20:10), whereas Jesus showed mercy to the woman caught in adultery (John 8:4-11). And, for another example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required that anyone who does any work on the sabbath is to be put to death (Exodus 31:14, Numbers 15:32-36), whereas Jesus allowed his disciples to work on the sabbath and said they were guiltless (Matthew 12:1-8), just as Jesus himself worked on the sabbath (John 5:17-18).

So in obeying the New Covenant commandments of Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:19-7:29, John 14:15, 1 Corinthians 14:37), believers, both Jews and Gentiles, are both more merciful and loving, and they also exceed in righteousness those who try to keep the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48, Ephesians 2:15-16, Hebrews 7:18-19, Colossians 2:14-17, 2 Corinthians 3:6-18).