jasoncran Posted March 28, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,246 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 90 Days Won: 5 Joined: 02/16/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted March 28, 2012 bee i agree given the statements by paul more info? when he talks about the rapture he first mentions the bodily ressurection of our lord then says we will not all sleep and all will rise when he comes. jesus talks about the last day having one ressurection. for the damned to hell and for the christians to eternalife. i like to take jesus at his word. The rapture is clearly stated in 1Th 4:16-17: Step 1: The Lord himself will come down from heaven Step 2: The dead in Christ will rise first Step 3: We who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air. Step 4: And so we will be with the Lord forever. do proper exegesis and tell me what that means to the saved gentile and or jew in the tribulation? I wanna' do improper exegesis! "Tribulation" comes from unfulfilled prophecy, whose private interpretation cannot be certain. God's people have a miserable track record of interpreting prophecy before it is fulfilled. So I don't engage in what is not certain. I stick to what is plain and certain, with the certain knowledge that what is not plain and certain will be in agreement with what is. But what is certain is clearly stated in 1Th 4:16-17. Therefore, one's understanding of the meaning of anything in unfulfilled prophecy (tribulation) whose meaning cannot be certain, must be in agreement with what is certain in 1Th 4:16-17, as it relates to the saved gentile and or jew in the tribulation. and with this -- john 5 28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation one ressurection at the same time for the lost and the saved. john 6 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. These are not prophecy. Their meaning is certain. 1) At the end of time, Jesus will descend from heaven with a loud command (Come forth!) -- (Jn 5:28-29), and all that are in their graves shall hear his voice and come forth, the sheep and the goats. 2) Those in the ground who are in Christ will come forth with glorified bodies. (1Th 4:16) 3) Those in Christ who are above the ground will be transformed instantaneously. (1Co 15:52) 4) Then both will rise to meet the Lord in the air (1Th 4:17), 5) and accompany Jesus down to earth (1Th 4:14) in the parousia. beeep, beep. attention earth, the rapture has occured t-minus 6 years 364 days and 59 days till the lord comes. somehow that violates the very idea of know man knoweth the hour. unless you can prove to me that in the tribulation that man isnt a man anymore. the problem is here that either god decieves the new believers in that dont know the raptured happened or that its wrong or they do know? a million plus believers gone in one day will be noticed! ironic, every time i talk this stuff its the futurists who gave the very reason to walk way from it all, none of the preterists or historicsts really convinced me. i tried to really defend it and each time it was some futurist making one of these statements. apparently you arent aware of the barrier tween jew and christian and the fact that jews are jealous of us at times. they wont say it but im sure looking at what we have done with the word and how we live it does get them angry and green. Could you be a little more specific. I'm not really understanding what you are saying here. simple, when the rapture occurs as you say with the seven year trib or mid trib, all the world if the read the bible and believed it would know exactly when christ would come back. thus negating the very verse of no man knoweth the hour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted March 28, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted March 28, 2012 beeep, beep. attention earth, the rapture has occured t-minus 6 years 364 days and 59 days till the lord comes. somehow that violates the very idea of know man knoweth the hour. unless you can prove to me that in the tribulation that man isnt a man anymore. the problem is here that either god decieves the new believers in that dont know the raptured happened or that its wrong or they do know? a million plus believers gone in one day will be noticed! ironic, every time i talk this stuff its the futurists who gave the very reason to walk way from it all, none of the preterists or historicsts really convinced me. i tried to really defend it and each time it was some futurist making one of these statements. apparently you arent aware of the barrier tween jew and christian and the fact that jews are jealous of us at times. they wont say it but im sure looking at what we have done with the word and how we live it does get them angry and green. Preterism is a false belief system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoncran Posted March 28, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,246 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 90 Days Won: 5 Joined: 02/16/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted March 28, 2012 beeep, beep. attention earth, the rapture has occured t-minus 6 years 364 days and 59 days till the lord comes. somehow that violates the very idea of know man knoweth the hour. unless you can prove to me that in the tribulation that man isnt a man anymore. the problem is here that either god decieves the new believers in that dont know the raptured happened or that its wrong or they do know? a million plus believers gone in one day will be noticed! ironic, every time i talk this stuff its the futurists who gave the very reason to walk way from it all, none of the preterists or historicsts really convinced me. i tried to really defend it and each time it was some futurist making one of these statements. apparently you arent aware of the barrier tween jew and christian and the fact that jews are jealous of us at times. they wont say it but im sure looking at what we have done with the word and how we live it does get them angry and green. Preterism is a false belief system. so america was founded by a bunch of heretics(puritans believed closely to what i do)? up to 200 yrs ago isreal wasnt even considered to come back. yet if it so clear and easily seen then why was it so hidden? and theres a difference tween full and partial so i should trust van impe when he says this chapter is happening in front of us and yet is wrong? http://prophecydebate.com/?p=337 one of many with him and alot of the popular futurists. if you all really believe that rapture thing then why not donate your estate to the jews when you die? i know of a man that suggests that and has ministry in doing just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted March 28, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted March 28, 2012 beeep, beep. attention earth, the rapture has occured t-minus 6 years 364 days and 59 days till the lord comes. somehow that violates the very idea of know man knoweth the hour. unless you can prove to me that in the tribulation that man isnt a man anymore. the problem is here that either god decieves the new believers in that dont know the raptured happened or that its wrong or they do know? a million plus believers gone in one day will be noticed! ironic, every time i talk this stuff its the futurists who gave the very reason to walk way from it all, none of the preterists or historicsts really convinced me. i tried to really defend it and each time it was some futurist making one of these statements. apparently you arent aware of the barrier tween jew and christian and the fact that jews are jealous of us at times. they wont say it but im sure looking at what we have done with the word and how we live it does get them angry and green. Preterism is a false belief system. so america was founded by a bunch of heretics(puritans believed closely to what i do)? up to 200 yrs ago isreal wasnt even considered to come back. yet if it so clear and easily seen then why was it so hidden? and theres a difference tween full and partial so i should trust van impe when he says this chapter is happening in front of us and yet is wrong? http://prophecydebate.com/?p=337 one of many with him and alot of the popular futurists. if you all really believe that rapture thing then why not donate your estate to the jews when you die? i know of a man that suggests that and has ministry in doing just that. Huh? What does America have to do with it? What does my last will and testament have to do with anything? Should I be alive when Jesus comes, and that is possible, who would ever be around worthy enough to execute it when the world will be utterly in chaos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoncran Posted March 28, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,246 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 90 Days Won: 5 Joined: 02/16/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted March 28, 2012 beeep, beep. attention earth, the rapture has occured t-minus 6 years 364 days and 59 days till the lord comes. somehow that violates the very idea of know man knoweth the hour. unless you can prove to me that in the tribulation that man isnt a man anymore. the problem is here that either god decieves the new believers in that dont know the raptured happened or that its wrong or they do know? a million plus believers gone in one day will be noticed! ironic, every time i talk this stuff its the futurists who gave the very reason to walk way from it all, none of the preterists or historicsts really convinced me. i tried to really defend it and each time it was some futurist making one of these statements. apparently you arent aware of the barrier tween jew and christian and the fact that jews are jealous of us at times. they wont say it but im sure looking at what we have done with the word and how we live it does get them angry and green. Preterism is a false belief system. so america was founded by a bunch of heretics(puritans believed closely to what i do)? up to 200 yrs ago isreal wasnt even considered to come back. yet if it so clear and easily seen then why was it so hidden? and theres a difference tween full and partial so i should trust van impe when he says this chapter is happening in front of us and yet is wrong? http://prophecydebate.com/?p=337 one of many with him and alot of the popular futurists. if you all really believe that rapture thing then why not donate your estate to the jews when you die? i know of a man that suggests that and has ministry in doing just that. Huh? if the rapture is real then why not donate your estate to the jews with the intent of funding a place for the take refuge and or bibles giving to them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted March 28, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted March 28, 2012 beeep, beep. attention earth, the rapture has occured t-minus 6 years 364 days and 59 days till the lord comes. somehow that violates the very idea of know man knoweth the hour. unless you can prove to me that in the tribulation that man isnt a man anymore. the problem is here that either god decieves the new believers in that dont know the raptured happened or that its wrong or they do know? a million plus believers gone in one day will be noticed! ironic, every time i talk this stuff its the futurists who gave the very reason to walk way from it all, none of the preterists or historicsts really convinced me. i tried to really defend it and each time it was some futurist making one of these statements. apparently you arent aware of the barrier tween jew and christian and the fact that jews are jealous of us at times. they wont say it but im sure looking at what we have done with the word and how we live it does get them angry and green. Preterism is a false belief system. so america was founded by a bunch of heretics(puritans believed closely to what i do)? up to 200 yrs ago isreal wasnt even considered to come back. yet if it so clear and easily seen then why was it so hidden? and theres a difference tween full and partial so i should trust van impe when he says this chapter is happening in front of us and yet is wrong? http://prophecydebate.com/?p=337 one of many with him and alot of the popular futurists. if you all really believe that rapture thing then why not donate your estate to the jews when you die? i know of a man that suggests that and has ministry in doing just that. Huh? if the rapture is real then why not donate your estate to the jews with the intent of funding a place for the take refuge and or bibles giving to them? It isn't something God is telling me to do. I have unsaved relatives that could use our estate. The Lord God will be dealing with the Jew as He has in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoncran Posted March 28, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,246 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 90 Days Won: 5 Joined: 02/16/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted March 28, 2012 beeep, beep. attention earth, the rapture has occured t-minus 6 years 364 days and 59 days till the lord comes. somehow that violates the very idea of know man knoweth the hour. unless you can prove to me that in the tribulation that man isnt a man anymore. the problem is here that either god decieves the new believers in that dont know the raptured happened or that its wrong or they do know? a million plus believers gone in one day will be noticed! ironic, every time i talk this stuff its the futurists who gave the very reason to walk way from it all, none of the preterists or historicsts really convinced me. i tried to really defend it and each time it was some futurist making one of these statements. apparently you arent aware of the barrier tween jew and christian and the fact that jews are jealous of us at times. they wont say it but im sure looking at what we have done with the word and how we live it does get them angry and green. Preterism is a false belief system. so america was founded by a bunch of heretics(puritans believed closely to what i do)? up to 200 yrs ago isreal wasnt even considered to come back. yet if it so clear and easily seen then why was it so hidden? and theres a difference tween full and partial so i should trust van impe when he says this chapter is happening in front of us and yet is wrong? http://prophecydebate.com/?p=337 one of many with him and alot of the popular futurists. if you all really believe that rapture thing then why not donate your estate to the jews when you die? i know of a man that suggests that and has ministry in doing just that. Huh? if the rapture is real then why not donate your estate to the jews with the intent of funding a place for the take refuge and or bibles giving to them? It isn't something God is telling me to do. I have unsaved relatives that could use our estate. The Lord God will be dealing with the Jew as He has in the past. it doesnt matter if the jew the whole reason the trib is to be as the jews are the ones to witness to the world. oddly so you dont think that the lord will come in your lifetime. i have read this mans book and it was given to me by a godly man as i asked him how do i defend the futurist position and yet it doesnt do that well. interesting points but i strongly disagree. it was my forage into looking into ancient and modern judaism that led me to conclude that futurism for the most part is off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted March 28, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted March 28, 2012 it doesnt matter if the jew the whole reason the trib is to be as the jews are the ones to witness to the world. oddly so you dont think that the lord will come in your lifetime. i have read this mans book and it was given to me by a godly man as i asked him how do i defend the futurist position and yet it doesnt do that well. interesting points but i strongly disagree. it was my forage into looking into ancient and modern judaism that led me to conclude that futurism for the most part is off. I believe it is entirely possible that the Lord will take His Bride in my lifetime. The whole reason for the Tribulation is not for the Jews to be a witness to the world. It is for the Lord to reveal to them once again who Messiah is, and to pour down judgment upon the Earth. I have no idea what this newfangled term,'futurism' is, but believing what God says about the times ahead doesn't merit a moniker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoncran Posted March 28, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,246 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 90 Days Won: 5 Joined: 02/16/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted March 28, 2012 it doesnt matter if the jew the whole reason the trib is to be as the jews are the ones to witness to the world. oddly so you dont think that the lord will come in your lifetime. i have read this mans book and it was given to me by a godly man as i asked him how do i defend the futurist position and yet it doesnt do that well. interesting points but i strongly disagree. it was my forage into looking into ancient and modern judaism that led me to conclude that futurism for the most part is off. I believe it is entirely possible that the Lord will take His Bride in my lifetime. The whole reason for the Tribulation is not for the Jews to be a witness to the world. It is for the Lord to reveal to them once again who Messiah is, and to pour down judgment upon the Earth. I have no idea what this newfangled term,'futurism' is, but believing what God says about the times ahead doesn't merit a moniker. its a common term to describe what is taugh today by most of the churches. the world already knows who the messiah is and well why then isnt an land outside of rome mentioned and all the symbols and beasts saw by john look close to what daniel says? and in daniel they are all named but one. and the last is id late by historical events that fit what the last beast did. the eu is dead and well heres why. the modern economic crisis and if theres an aod . i should then look for some jewish revolt? the biggest problem for the tribbers is how they have to squirm around the idea of the temple being holy again. if its profaned again then it has to be holy! and what does matter to us if a man is worshipped by the jews? the aod spoken of by daniel was seen first by the jews in the days of antiochus and then when nero ordered the fall of jerusalem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted March 28, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted March 28, 2012 it doesnt matter if the jew the whole reason the trib is to be as the jews are the ones to witness to the world. oddly so you dont think that the lord will come in your lifetime. i have read this mans book and it was given to me by a godly man as i asked him how do i defend the futurist position and yet it doesnt do that well. interesting points but i strongly disagree. it was my forage into looking into ancient and modern judaism that led me to conclude that futurism for the most part is off. I believe it is entirely possible that the Lord will take His Bride in my lifetime. The whole reason for the Tribulation is not for the Jews to be a witness to the world. It is for the Lord to reveal to them once again who Messiah is, and to pour down judgment upon the Earth. I have no idea what this newfangled term,'futurism' is, but believing what God says about the times ahead doesn't merit a moniker. its a common term to describe what is taugh today by most of the churches. the world already knows who the messiah is and well why then isnt an land outside of rome mentioned and all the symbols and beasts saw by john look close to what daniel says? and in daniel they are all named but one. and the last is id late by historical events that fit what the last beast did. the eu is dead and well heres why. the modern economic crisis and if theres an aod . i should then look for some jewish revolt? the biggest problem for the tribbers is how they have to squirm around the idea of the temple being holy again. if its profaned again then it has to be holy! and what does matter to us if a man is worshipped by the jews? the aod spoken of by daniel was seen first by the jews in the days of antiochus and then when nero ordered the fall of jerusalem. No, the world doesn't already know who the Messiah is, and the Jew has for the last 2000 years denied Him. In the Tribulation, God will be focused on them, and they will know in no uncertain terms, who their Messiah is, by the ministrations of the 144,000 and by the signs and wonders of the two prophets. Preterism misplaces actual fulfillment of many prophecies, and cuts off so much in the way of prophecy that has not been fulfilled yet, and that includes the abomination of desolation. You really must shake off this false teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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