The Purpose of the "Rapture"

[jasoncran]

This is an interpretation and an imaginary scenario that feeds it, based on the mind, not based on prayerful study and acceptance of what the Word states.

On what basis do you know this with certainty?

The Word of God.

The Word of God tells you that jason's interpretation is not based in prayerful study?

What verse is that in?

His made-up scenario was based on his own understanding and is not based on what scripture teaches us. Doing that is a way of forcing one's ideas, rather than allowing God's Word to stand on its own merit. We have to receive the word, not mold it to our understanding.

so you agree with the jews then say on the temple as they did look for the messiah to do what you just told me. to use isreal to save the world. that is what you are saying. your millenial views are the same? so i shouldnt ask if that makes sense that grace isnt given in the millenium it ended so how will sinners then be saved? jesus changes? doesnt the word say god doesnt lie and he changeth not? if he was merciful in the ot then he is also mericful now. and if he was for justice then he is now!

yet you tell me that changes, he shows no mercy and just judges.

[Floatingaxe]

On what basis do you know this with certainty?

The Word of God.

so let me get this right? the first time jesus came grace was dispensed and the second time grace will be given once again?

When Jesus returns, the age of Grace is complete.

that rules out the millenial view and the temple that is a literal place of worship.

It certainly does NOT. Scripture in the OT and the NT all describe a Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ, which is an age two removed from the one we live in now---the age of Grace. There will be a Temple from which our High Priest will rule. We will worship Jesus Christ our King and Lord, ruler over all the earth as He rules and reigns from His beloved Jerusalem.

yes but theirs sinners alive in that age and they dont get grace? you said grace ends when he returns.

The Age of Grace ends. Grace is available for the repentant, but with the Holy Spirit who dwells in the Church is absent during the Tribulation, repentance will be rare. During the Millennium, there will be grace, but justice will be the strong point.

so when those sinners sin how many times does the lord say thats it you die! once , twice?if that was so effective why would god do that now?

Do what???

why because no man would or could without grace and longsuffering be saved. even in the days of moses and the prophets grace and mercy existed. and you say that i dont understand my bible

its not by my works that im saved but by the blood.if that level of mercy isnt given then how will the sinners be saved?

You are speaking out of the benefit of the knowledge of this age of Grace. Once the trump is sounded, sinners are locked in to undergoing Tribulation. We can only hope that many will come to the assent to Jesus Christ as Saviour, but the word of God tells us that no one repents.

Revelation 9:20

But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk.

Revelation 9:21

And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.

Revelation 16:9

And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory.

Revelation 16:11

They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds.

[Floatingaxe]

This is an interpretation and an imaginary scenario that feeds it, based on the mind, not based on prayerful study and acceptance of what the Word states.

On what basis do you know this with certainty?

The Word of God.

The Word of God tells you that jason's interpretation is not based in prayerful study?

What verse is that in?

His made-up scenario was based on his own understanding and is not based on what scripture teaches us. Doing that is a way of forcing one's ideas, rather than allowing God's Word to stand on its own merit. We have to receive the word, not mold it to our understanding.

so you agree with the jews then say on the temple as they did look for the messiah to do what you just told me. to use isreal to save the world. that is what you are saying. your millenial views are the same? so i shouldnt ask if that makes sense that grace isnt given in the millenium it ended so how will sinners then be saved? jesus changes? doesnt the word say god doesnt lie and he changeth not? if he was merciful in the ot then he is also mericful now. and if he was for justice then he is now!

yet you tell me that changes, he shows no mercy and just judges.

Use Israel to save the world? What are you saying?

In the Tribulation era, God will be working with the Jew to save them. The world will not be God's main focus.

In the Millennium, mortal people will know Jesus as their King, politically, and not everyone will know Him as Saviour, spiritually. They will have to reckon with that as individuals, at some point in their lives.

God never changes, but through the ages man has experienced God's different attributes. In this age of Grace, we are experiencing God's mercy and grace because of Jesus. Salvation has come! In the Tribulation, people will experience His wrath. Turn or burn. In the Millennium, people who survive will experience His peace and just rulership. He doesn't change, but He does reveal Himself differently to man throughout the ages.

[Floatingaxe]

And I am still interested in your answer to the question in red, above.

When you study the whole word of God, you receive the full picture from the beginning to end of a time where the Messiah will reign on Earth.

Holy Spirit's job is to convince us of the truth of everything, and His convincing is not questionable, as it aligns with everything scripturally.

And I am still interested in your answer to the question in red, above.

There is no need for harassment, Eleanor. I have answered you twice. If you don't like it, move on. Thanks.

[Floatingaxe]

And I am still interested in your answer to the question in red, above.

When you study the whole word of God, you receive the full picture from the beginning to end of a time where the Messiah will reign on Earth.

Holy Spirit's job is to convince us of the truth of everything, and His convincing is not questionable, as it aligns with everything scripturally.

And I am still interested in your answer to the question in red, above.

There is no need for harassment, Eleanor. I have answered you twice. If you don't like it, move on. Thanks

Well, your non-responsive reply has answered my question.

So I will move on and conclude that you have no way of knowing with certainty what is from the Holy Spirit and what is not.

And that uncertainty is to be compared with what is specifically stated and certain, apart from private interpretation of symbolic unfulfilled prophecy, which h is given in riddles (Nu 12:6-8).

You should be in agreement that the Holy Spirit within us is how we know what is true and what isn't. What He says lines up with the word. If we differ, we have either missed His voice and substituted our own, or the word is not clear enough to our finite minds and further study is necessary.

God has allowed gaps in the expression of eschatological matters for His own reasons.

In my study of the scriptures, and in seeking His guidance about them, He has spoken to me and I am satisfied with what He says. I have His certainty. If you are satisfied with what He says to you, then be so. Your over-use of Numbers 12:6-8 is mind-numbing, however, and really is not germain to this discussion.

These are testing times to walk in love despite differences. There is NO REASON to be high and mighty with people who do not share your views. Some have no knowledge; some have poor understanding; some have an immature revelation. We are all at varying levels of growth, here.

[goldust59]

Eleanor, I think that over time, the depth of understanding that the apostles had was partially lost to us due to men throwing in their views. I think that God is opening our understanding to to this to bring us to maturity as a whole, properly functioning body to bring about His purposes in the last days. Everything we need to know is in the written Word, but hidden until the Holy Spirit opens our understanding of it.

I think not being able to see what the apostles understood & put in writing is what opens the 'church' to being apostate.

The ONLY protection from straying from the truth is the Holy Spirit.

You don't think the depth of the apostles' understanding is contained in what they wrote?

Jesus explained everything to them before he left (Lk 24:27, 44-47), and they likewise received the Holy Spirit in all fullness less than two weeks after he went back to heaven.

Over and above what Jesus so thoroughly explaned to them from the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms, what added depth would the fullness of the Holy Spirit not have shown them, or that they would have failed to reveal to us in what they wrote?

Do you really think this is plausible?

Do you really think the Holy Spirit shows us more than he showed the Apostles of Jesus Christ, who also had the benefit of learning the meaning of the Scriptures from Christ himself?

Are you sure about this?

Yes, I think the depth of what they understood is in what they wrote, I just think our understanding of it has been tainted by men, so much, that it was pretty much lost to us for a long time. I believe the Holy Spirit is restoring our understanding, not necessarily showing us more than they showed them

I don't understand how my understanding of Scripture can be lost if I haven't lost the Scriptures themselves.

Nor do I understand how anyone's understanding of Scripture in the past was any more tainted by men than it is today.

The Words of Scripture speak for themselves. How can understanding of them be lost as long as I can understand language?

If this restored understanding is in complete agreement with what is already written and certain,

and if it does not show more than was shown to the writers of the NT,

then what was lost that is being restored to what we had all along (in what is already written and certain),

and that does not differ from what the NT writers understood?

In other words, what was lost that is being restored to what was not lost?

Yes, I am sure.

Goldust, this is not making sense.

What is it that are you sure of?

The apostles did not receive the Holy Spirit in fullness, nor have we yet. Jesus was the only one, so far, that was given the Holy Spirit without measure so that the heavens were 'open' to Him.

"In fullness" does not equate to "without measure."

"Fullness" is limited to and determined by a measure, while "without measure" is limitless.

Understanding of what some of the scripture is actually saying in plain writing has been 'lost' .

Take the arguments over the "rapture" for example. I believe the apostles knew exactly what was meant when it was written, but at present, people can't grasp it. We have the scripture right in front of us & can read it word for word. Why doesn't everyone 'see' it how God meant it? Men have corrupted what it means by not seeking the Spirit to give them understanding. It has been taught by man from what he thinks it says, people have listened to & accepted the various opinions & this has caused great division in the 'church'.

The Holy Spirit wrote it, so He knows what it means, but a lot of people just go on believing what they have been taught by men or what they think it says.

I believe the Holy Spirit is restoring understanding to those who seek after the truth.

How are we to understand the deeper/hidden truths if we can't understand what is plainly written? We have to have a correct understanding of what is plainly written to grasp the hidden truths.

[Bold Believer]

On what basis do you know this with certainty?

The Word of God.

so let me get this right? the first time jesus came grace was dispensed and the second time grace will be given once again?

When Jesus returns, the age of Grace is complete.

that rules out the millenial view and the temple that is a literal place of worship.

It certainly does NOT. Scripture in the OT and the NT all describe a Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ, which is an age two removed from the one we live in now---the age of Grace. There will be a Temple from which our High Priest will rule. We will worship Jesus Christ our King and Lord, ruler over all the earth as He rules and reigns from His beloved Jerusalem.

That temple is well described by Peter who called us a spiritual house made of living stones. Our High Priest has been ruling and making intercession for us EVER SINCE HE RETURNED TO HIS FATHER. The High Priest can only do that in the Holy of Holies, which is IN THE TEMPLE. So then, the Temple is the Church (in heaven) and we here on earth have access to it in the Spirit as priests when we pray. The High Priest is Christ. He is both KING and HIGH PRIEST.

The Jerusalem ABOVE is our mother. It is the Jerusalem ABOVE which is the Holy City. The present Jerusalem is in slavery (because it's earthly). In Rev 20, the Holy City is also being attacked, despite the earthly consequences. Satan hates the Church Triumphant, so he attacks us down here with lies about God and his rule and His Word. He can't get at the Holy City literally, because it's in heaven, so he attacks the Holy City by making it out to be a lie, by saying Jesus doesn't exist, by saying the Scriptures are not true.

Overliteralizing confuses things.

The purpose of the Rapture is to get the living Christians out of these earth-bodies and into bodies in which they can function on the New Earth.

[jasoncran]

either a day is a day or it it is not.context tells you.

if we cant plainly read the bible and it not have easy to read formating then why bother? this doesnt mean we have it all figured out but that well its not so esoteric. much about the "end" isnt mentioned. i think if god wanted us to know exactly when and whom he would have told us. he didnt and with isreal he told them who would judged them and who would set them free!

[goldust59]

Eleanor,

Why are you mad at me? I am & have been making general observations.

The scripture does mean what it says- people are seeing it too many different ways & that is the problem. Maybe we are just having a failure to communicate? All I am saying is that everyone should 'see' the plain written word the same, but they aren't. I am not trying to separate anything.

I didn't mention anything about those scripture references you listed. You must have me confused with someone else on that.

[Floatingaxe]

That's quite a creative explanation for why your uncertain private intepretation of symbolic unfulfilled prophecy, which is given in riddles (Nu 12:6-8),

does not agree with what is specifically stated and certain in the Word of God.

I am uncertain of NOTHING. Your constant ramming of one single verse does not make you correct. to one who is Spirit-filled and spirit-led, there is no such thing as a riddle.

1 John 2:20

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.

Does it not concern you that what you think the Holy Spirit shows you personally disagrees with what that same Holy Spirit has specifically stated in the authoritative and certain Word of God?

What Holy Spirit reveals to me, He will reveal to anyone, because he is the holder of all truth and he lives inside each of us. What He reveals agrees with all of scripture. I am not concerned, because I know His voice.

And particularly in light of the fact that you have no certain way of knowing if what you think the Holy Spirit shows you is really from the Holy Spirit and not your own mind?

The way I know the truth is the same as your way. I don't let my mind get in the way.

Where do you find this notion of "immature revelation" anywhere in the Word of God?

It isn't a notion. People are immature spiritually and have not received all that they should from the word. Surely you know this.